Talk:troll

http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=troll&diff=615652&oldid=461313 looks like vandalism. Never seen such a meaning before. Removing it. 220.233.48.200 14:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

RFV 1
The sense that is labelled as "Caltech slang". I think the slang used by particular institutions is too obscure to be included in Wiktionary. &mdash; Paul G 15:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Deleted. Caltech definitely constitutes a "narrow community" (see WT:CFI). —RuakhTALK 16:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll drop a note to the contributor. &mdash; Paul G 09:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think narrowness should matter, so long as it's verifiable. If someone's published A Dictionary of Caltech Slang or something that we can use to check that the terms exist, then they should be included. --Ptcamn 18:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, there's nothing stopping us from amending Criteria for inclusion to remove the "narrow community" caveat and to define "verifiable" as "supported by a published source, such as the published versions of UrbanDictionary.com"; just bring it to Beer parlour and Votes first. —RuakhTALK 18:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, don't put words in my mouth. UrbanDictionary is not a reliable source, whether online or in print. --Ptcamn 21:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Whereas our hypothetical "A Dictionary of Caltech Slang", published by "someone", is reliable? Either way, you see my point: such a policy would entail a change to WT:CFI, and hence would need to be voted on. —RuakhTALK 21:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation?
The article lists two pronunciations. Are both pronunciations equally valid for all the possible meanings of the word, or do the pronunciations have different meanings?SpectrumDT 12:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

A more general definition of the neologism
Hey, so I'm pretty intrigued by the idea of a troll (in the internet sense) being a particular sub-genre of comedy not tied to the internet. As in, yes, it's very related to the internet but I don't think the internet is integral to its definition. Think of someone who shows up in the crowd at a protest with a "We have no idea what we're talking about" sign (which I've seen at a town hall recently). I think even streaking is in the same spirit.

My question is, does that seem like such a far-out theory to other people? To explain better what I mean, I'll show the definition I've been working on. It's much more verbose than what the final should be, but I'm just trying to specify exactly what I mean first:

"Misrepresenting oneself in an offensive or disruptive way for the purpose of comedy. The audience for the comedy consists of the "comedian" himself and those in the disrupted community who understand the humor."


 * However much fun your invented definition might be, it's no use to a dictionary documenting the language if you can't find evidence to cite it. Equinox ◑ 01:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, let me clarify that I just wanted to put into words a new use I've observed and maybe get feedback about whether this direction is misguided or unrepresentative. The definition isn't fabricated; it's one I've seen in use.  But it could be a really limited use.  I can't tell.


 * So: don't worry, I'm not even thinking of touching the article; just sounding it out. If I were to that point then yeah, I'd be talking about citations.  But before I go looking I want to see whether anyone's receptive to the idea at all.  FYI I'm new to Wikitionary so just let me know if I've made any faux pas. Qwerty0 06:14, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Possibly verifying the sense of tending a fire
A w:wp:googletest for "the ancient yuletide carol" shows that in the song Deck the Halls, the phrase is preceded by the verb troll in command form. Could these be related? :)--Thecurran 14:56, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

RFV 2
Rfv-sense: To tend a fire. OED? DCDuring TALK 14:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Not specifically. OED's troll v. I. 2. says, in part, “to roll, bowl, trundle; to turn over and over, or round and round”, which may be an action taken by someone tending a fire. —Michael Z. 2009-06-05 02:47 z 

RFV failed, sense removed. —Ruakh TALK 17:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Etym 2, senses 3 & 4 dates
Current defs:
 * 1)  To entice fish with bait; to fish using a line and bait or lures trailed behind a boat.
 * 2)  By extension, to search (for), to draw out, to entice.

Etymonline says that (quote) [http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=troll|Fig. sense of "to draw on as with a moving bait, entice, allure" is from 1560s.]

So I'm wondering: how sure are we that sense 4 is really by extention from sense 3, given that (according to Etymonline anyway) sense 4 predates sense 3?

Thanks--Person12 14:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

"Troll" as unwanted poster
Just a note: I've noticed that, beyond the traditional sense of "deliberate Internet troublemaker", the word "troll" has now (to the annoyance of oldbies) been appropriated as an insult to sling at anybody making an unpopular post. e.g. on YouTube you might see a genuine, non-troublemaking comment like "This guy can't play guitar at all; he's way out of tune" dismissed as a "troll" purely for being critical. This will probably end up diluting and broadening the word (which is a pity) so I thought I'd mention it early. Equinox ◑ 23:55, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

"Troll" (internet version) as pejorative
I know many netizens might disagree with me, but I honestly think that "troll" as a noun describing someone who "trolls" should be labelled pejorative, since the term is often used nowadays to effectively call someone a "dickhead". True, calling someone a troll doesn't have to be used in the pejorative sense, but neither does "dickhead". And "troll" certainly isn't being used commonly as a term of endearment. Whether the internet as a whole is generally full of more rude behaviour than real life is irrelevant too. And there's simply too much misuse of the term, or gratuitous use of it, to deem it appropriate in many cases. Any way to "back this up", since I'd change the definition but it's not like I'm laden with evidence other than being a netizen and seeing how terms like "troll" are used. Also, Equinox's section about "Troll as an unwanted poster" seems to have similar significance Ceigered 10:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

"Troll" etym. 2, sense 7 needs citation?
I'm certain I've heard this sense used in both real life and on internet forums. I use sense seven myself in colloquial speech with my friends. The problem is, I can't find anywhere where I can quote this sense from at the moment. Any solid contibution for a cited quotation would be great. Thank you. --SoundSynthesis. A lover of many things strange and nerdy 21:05, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

RFV 3
Rfv-sense "To be the target of an internet troll." The usexes are of the passive form "be trolled". Siuenti (talk) 16:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This was speedy deleted and then restored. I think it should be speedy deleted again as a total error. Mglovesfun (talk) 07:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed it, hopefully no-one will complain. Siuenti (talk) 15:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Struck. - -sche (discuss) 08:31, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Transitiveness
As of current viewing the 8th and 9th definitions pertaining to "internet slang":
 * "intransitive" In an online community or discussion, (to post inflammatory material so as) to attempt to lure others into combative argument for purposes of personal entertainment and/or gratuitous disruption.
 * "transitive" By extension, to incite anger (outside of an internet context); to provoke, harass or annoy.

I went and looked up these terms as they pertain to classifying verbs since I didn't know what they meant...
 * transitive: requires one or more objects
 * (eg I kick the ball)
 * intransitive: not taking a direct object
 * For example, the verb listen does not usually take a direct object; one cannot say *"I listened the ball".

I believe that some examples would serve in illustrating the transitive difference here, as I don't think the definitions adequately focus on doing so. For example:
 * Calculator trolls Oracle on the internet
 * Calculator trolls on the internet

There is a conflict in the transitive definition too. It has an "outside of an internet context" disclaimer, yet still has the "Internet slang" label out in front of it. How does this mesh?

I find both overly narrow. Although popularized on the internet and initially used pertaining to discussions there, this describes the place of origin but not the substance of its definition. I think we are mistaking "pizza is invented in Italy and popular there" with "pizza is only made in Italy".

Unless some source exists specifying exclusive-Internet usage of the term, I think we should downgrade this exclusive definition to "especially on the Internet" rather than requiring "in an online community" or conversely "outside of an Internet".

The verb 'to troll' can be used both transitively and intransitively on and off of the internet. It is wrong to speak as if intransitive use exclusively means Interneet and that transitive use exclusively means non-Internet. Etym (talk) 14:17, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding the conflict point: I don't see a necessary conflict in Internet slang referring to non-Internet things. People on the Internet talk about things that happen off it. Equinox ◑ 06:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Numbering
Why does the numbering for the definitions of Etymology 2 go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 1, 1, 2? 76.189.141.37 18:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Blank lines (now removed). SemperBlotto (talk) 05:44, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

"Fantasy"
This is POV and adds nothing to the definition. --2604:2000:E84A:4100:1B6:EBD2:1BE7:63A4 18:44, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * So you think trolls actually exist? Boy, the Internet never ceases to amaze. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:46, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

RFV discussion: October 2019
Sense "An ugly person of either sex, especially one seeking sexual experiences." It's not something I've heard, and I think that quotes might clarify the context and meaning.--Prosfilaes (talk) 07:33, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
 * cited Kiwima (talk) 18:28, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Yeah, a natural extension of the "grotesque monster" sense. Kiwima beat me to citing it. Equinox ◑ 03:03, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * RFV-passed, although I am not convinced about the "especially one seeking sexual experiences" part. Kiwima (talk) 17:51, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Internet troll
So this sense, etymologically speaking, has nothing to do with the grotesque monster, as many people seem to assume, but rather the verb to troll, meaning to draw something out or elicit? Could they have been partly conflated over time, or is it just a matter of folk etymology? I guess patent troll was one of the earlier uses of a sense along those lines, before the Internet came about. Word dewd544 (talk) 23:02, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That struck me as out of place too. The online OED has had this listed as a draft addition since 2006 under the "strolling" etymology, but notes that it may also have been influenced by the "grotesque monster" ety.  It begs the question how is anyone deciding what its ety is?  Spinning  Spark  07:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


 * In my personal experience it used to be primarily a verb (trolling someone on Usenet newsgroups, i.e. casting a lure to provoke certain responses) and the noun has become more common more recently, along with the bridge-troll type image (the grey 4chan troll face is now widely known!). Equinox ◑ 08:49, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


 * This extract from Ibsen's The Masterbuilder (1893) suggests a meaning of a deceitful person
 * HILDA: But if that be so, can you then not lie just the least little bit—?
 * SOLNESS: Lie? Hilda, take those d—d plans away.
 * HILDA: Now don't bite! You spoke about a troll.—It seems to me you act like a troll yourself.
 *  Spinning Spark  09:15, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Fishing: especially for pike?
Chambers 1908 defines it as "to fish, esp. for pike, with rod and line, using revolving lure, artificial or natural, such as spoon-bait, minnow, etc." Equinox ◑ 03:28, 21 March 2020 (UTC)