Talk:turn to stone

turn to stone
Three senses. turn + to + stone. DCDuring TALK * Holiday Greetings! 01:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I see nothing here worth keeping. Mglovesfun (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, delete, SoP. &#x200b;— msh210 ℠ 18:30, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete as per discussion. Tooironic 22:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. No controversy here. I spoke too soon. No opinion. —Internoob (Disc.•Cont.) 23:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC) 04:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I assume that the sense of turn used in the proposed-for-deletion sense "turn to stone--To metamorphosise into stone" is "turn--to become" with the example sentence "The leaves turn brown in autumn". However, the sentence that documents "to turn" in that sense, just quoted, does not use the preposition "to". Should not the entry "turn" first get expanded with the missing senses before this gets deleted?
 * The sense "turn to stone--To become completely still, not moving" is clearly figurative and thus idiomatic, documented by "The lions would creep up on their prey, but turn to stone when the prey looked in their direction".
 * shows almost no dictionaries, though.
 * A similarly structured phrase, one whose usage I need documented somewhere for confident understanding and use, even if in an appendix, is "turn to ashes". --Dan Polansky 10:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What is idiomatic is the figurative sense of "stone". MZajac's notion of collocation documentation may perhaps begin with some predicates of this form. I think the best start is an Appendix, wherever the content may ultimately reside. BTW, "turn to" in this sense doesn't seem to be considered a phrasal verb. DCDuring TALK 11:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that we are missing a sense in the "stone" entry? What would the definition read, and how would it combine with "turn to "?
 * I am not saying that "turn to" is a phrasal verb, but "turn brown" and "turn to ashes" are two distinct grammatical contructions, and both should be documented in "turn" entry, not only the first construction.--Dan Polansky 11:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you can't say turn to rock, turn to concrete for the third sense can you? Or change to stone, become stone. Yes Keep third sense (moving to rfd-sense times three). Mglovesfun (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Websters 1913 had a figurative sense for stone. No OneLook dictionary follows them. What is more important is the proper handling of complements at turn. DCDuring TALK 12:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The complements are not really all that complicated. "Turn" + adj or "Turn" + "to" + noun. In both cases the meaning is "become". DCDuring TALK 12:25, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * At the very least, one can turn to jelly. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * To our current "(transitive) To become : The leaves turn brown in autumn ; When I asked him for the money, he turned nasty" I've now added "(intransitive) To become : Midas made everything turn to gold ; He turned into a monster every full moon". &#x200b;— msh210 ℠ 18:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am experimenting with the CGEL-recommended modifier and coordination tests for phrases. (See and #ABO system below.) In this case, I can find citations for "turn to solid/cold/icy/hard stone". Thus, it does not seem to form a set phrase. This kind of test would be a sufficient test of idiomaticity. That is, if a phrase did not admit modification (or coordination), then it should be included as a set phrase. Failure to meet the test puts a term on weak ground, but does not per se exclude it. DCDuring TALK 20:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * To Msh: I have made the sense you have added to "turn" more specific, by defining it as "To fundamentally change; to metamorphose." Revert me or adjust the def if it is actually too specific or needs any other adjustment or as you see fit.
 * On a marginal note, the first sense of "turn--to be come" is translated into Czech typically using the prefix "z-" indicating a change of state, while the other sense seems to be a change in substance rather than in state and is translated into Czech as "proměnit": "Midas proměnil všechno ve zlato." -- "Midas made everything turn to gold." --Dan Polansky 09:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If we choose to delete this, then we first need to consider the following citation:
 * 2008, V. C. Andrews, Delia's Heart‎
 * I felt his absence too deeply and saw the sorrow on all of their faces. My heart turned to stone in my chest.
 * This is clearly an idiomatic expression, but if we choose to delete turn to stone:, then we are missing either a sense of stone: or a sense of turn: (to). --EncycloPetey 23:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Deleted definitions one and two, per EP yes we're trying to find another definition of stone to make this into a sum of parts case. That's probably a good indication that this should be kept. Mglovesfun (talk) 08:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * A quick look at COCA reveals that the following terms showing figurative use with forms of turn to:: stone, ice, gold, ash, ashes, water, jelly, shit. They are used with "become" and "is" as well. This is clearly just making meaning out of words. We can as well put in every attestable collocation of verb and noun as keep this if only one or the other is slightly uncommon or figurative. DCDuring TALK 09:38, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Then it sounds like we ought to be concentrating on rewriting turn: (to), and not worry about stone:. This is a sense of the verb that means "to acquire certain properites of X" in either a real and physical way or in a figurative way. --EncycloPetey 05:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, which is why I would delete. This is no way to document all the abuse for what happens to the heart, which can be cold, sink, skip a beat, grow three times larger, etc. etc. etc. DAVilla 12:28, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with this is that as long as there's no sense of turn to which covers this, this simply cannot be sum of parts. -- Prince Kassad 10:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * See turn to. DCDuring TALK 21:00, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Deleted.--Jusjih 00:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)