Template talk:vep-decl-stems

"?" forms
Aren't the illative, first terminative and first additive formed with -hV, -hVsai and -hVpäi? e.g. "abu": abuhu, abuhusai, abuhupäi. and "ma": maha, mahasai, mahapäi? Kapulakone (talk) 08:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know enough about Veps to say, but if a grammar agrees, I can implement it that way. &mdash; S URJECTION / T / C / L / 12:04, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, I found this https://web.archive.org/web/20210624201820/https://docplayer.ru/29517377-Vepsan-kel-openduzkirj-tauz-kaznuzile-piter-piterin-vepsan-sebr-2014.html (specifically see section 25 for illative, section 10 for the other two)
 * I don't actually speak Russian, but I'll give some info I got via Yandex translator:
 * -if the preceding vowel is i, the V is e (kodi - kodihe instead of *kodihi)
 * -there is also an illative suffix -ze (like Finnish -seen), if the vowel stem's (e.g. kirvhe-) last consonant is h, then this is used (so kirvez - kirvheze), basically the combinations "haha/hoho/hehe" are avoided here (so "kirvhehe" is not valid).
 * -some words also lose the last vowel of the stem, (mec - mecha instead of *mecaha)
 * It's best to get some actual speaker of Russian to translate the information properly before adding it.
 * Kapulakone (talk) 16:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * &mdash; S URJECTION / T / C / L / 17:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yup, the illative ending seems to be -hV or -ze/-že (following the vowel -i-), the terminative I is illative+sai, additive I is illative+päi.
 * Грамматика вепсского языка (Zajceva 1981) gives -sei and -pei for -sai and -päi respectively, but looking at some more recent books written in Veps it's clear that that is not orthographical.
 * Vepsän kielioppi (Grünthal 2015) gives -hV and -ze in words like ondhe and ahavoze, which doesn't fit the pattern "following -he and comforming to the preceding vowel). It also calls terminative I "lative" and ignores the additive.
 * Самоучитель вепсского языка (Brodsky 2008) explains it best, and as follows: Illative generally has -hV, -he after -i-, -ze if the final consonant of the stem is -h- (-že after -i-), and the final vowel in polysyllabic (2 or more) words is often dropped, and this is unpredictable. Still don't understand why ahavoze is correct...
 * Anyway, conclusion: Vowel dropping is impossible to predict, but the ending is. Thadh (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I added a sixth parameter to and created Category:Veps nominals missing the illative form as a maintenance category for entries that don't currently have it. &mdash; S URJECTION  / T / C / L / 10:22, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * This is with the assumption that the illative stem cannot be automatically determined - I'm not sure if it is. In, the nominative has no final vowel, but are there cases the nominative does end in a vowel but the illative stem does not? &mdash; S URJECTION / T / C / L / 10:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC)