User:Chuterix/Chuterix's Proto-Japonic Reconstruction Dictionary Project/Proto-Japonic words possibly borrowed from other Proto-Languages?

I analyze Proto-Japonic with phonetic and semantic similarities (Sanskrit or Proto-Indo-Iranian) to suggest a possible borrowing.

Note this is just speculation and may possibly just be coincidental. This does not include already proposed words (e.g. or ).

Here I only do PIE for now. Other Proto-Languages will be done later (e.g. check comparanda of, but not doing derivation proposal of that word).

Comments
Since you asked. :) If you'd prefer to locate this somewhere else, or if you just don't want it, please move or delete as appropriate.


 * *pukoru and *paru
 * These are a bit tricky. JA also has, and there have been (rare) cases of verbs developing an additional yodan ending -ru indicating ... some kind of extension of the core sense, as we see with  → , or  →.
 * Meanwhile, in PIE, it appears that 🇨🇬 has no "to blow" sense, and 🇨🇬 has no "to swell" sense. The JA term for "to blow" requires a velar consonant ( or  in the PIE, which is now missing, while the JA term for "to swell" requires a lack of any velar consonant in the PIE, but the PIE definitely has one.


 * *puru "to fall"
 * This very clearly has as the core vowel.  None of the PIE reconstructions, nor the daughter languages, has, manifesting instead , , and .  Most daughter languages also maintain some evidence of the PIE coda consonant.


 * *puru "to touch"
 * I suspect this might possibly be cognate with *puru "to fall", from the "touch" verb's core sense of "to briefly come into contact with something", much as you might expect of something light and flat that is falling, like a leaf or cherry blossom petal. Or perhaps with *puru "to shake, to rock".  Consider also likely-related adverb.


 * *mətu
 * Very unlikely to be related to the PIE candidates you have listed. The core sense of JA motsu has always been "to have in one's possession, to have on one's person", closer to English "to hold" than "to transport".


 * *kərəsu
 * Difficult to connect, as we've discussed earlier. :)

Broadly, when looking for connections like this, I've learned that there are a couple key things to look for:
 * The possibility of borrowings versus cognates
 * Clearly explainable, and consistent, sound correspondences

For instance, kawara "roof tile" is very interestingly quite like Sanskrit kapala "dome of the skull". And there's a very good reason for this -- the Japanese term does indeed trace back to an early borrowing from Sanskrit. ;) See also the etym at 🇨🇬.

Similarly, my early excitement at finding that Korean also has a subject particle was somewhat tempered when I learned both that 1) this is not that old, only appearing from the late 1500s, and 2) it may well have been borrowed from Japanese.

Regarding sound correspondences, if you come up with some sound shifts to connect Proto-Japonic *kərəsu with PIE, those sound shifts should be applicable in other areas to find additional related terms. If those sound shifts only work for this one derivation, then it's probably not correct.

Anyway, HTH! Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * New PJ←PIE theory created. Please review. -- Chuterix (talk) 02:50, 10 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Re: *kapu, the PIE terms all seem to revolve around a core meaning of — see also the related notes at Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kǫsati.  Meanwhile, the oldest Japanese senses are either to give food or water to an animal or to raise an animal by giving it food and water (the former takes the food or water as the object, the latter takes the animal as the object).  Semantically, quite different.
 * Then we have the phonology, which really only aligns (somewhat) with the initial ka-.
 * Re:, consider the potential relationship with , and related term.
 * Re: *yaku, I note that the PIE terms almost entirely relate more specifically to "destructive burning", as opposed to the more useful "burning" one does to cook something for human consumption. That said, there is some "destructive" overlap in modern JA terms like .  The phonology is somewhat dubious, however.
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:33, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Regarding yaku going around the meaning "destructive burning", the NKD2 entry lists a similar definition:
 * "[一] ② 燃やして形をなくす. 燃やして灰にする. 焼失する. ※書紀（720）天智二年二月（北野本訓）「新羅人、百済の南の畔の四の州を焼燔(ヤク)」Meaning: [1] (a) By burning removes the shape. By burning make to ashes. Destroy by fire (lit. burn ⟨suru verb, on'yomi⟩). Shoki (720) Heaven Wisdom - Year 2, Month 2 (??? Kitano) 'The people of Silla, burn four sands of the ridge of south Kudara'"
 * Not evaluating other responses for today. -- Chuterix (talk) 00:22, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Good find! I'm curious about the semantic overlap then between yaku and moyasu.  The moyasu root moyu is intransitive, whereas yaku was apparently ambitransitive, with the yodan (perhaps main?) paradigm being transitive.  Unsure if moyu "to burn" relates to moyu "to sprout", perhaps from the idea of flames arising in a fashion similar to buds (I may have read that somewhere... but I must confirm).  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:19, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Correction: ② Burn to nothing (literally, “eradicate by burning)”; burn to ashes; to destroy by fire. [Nihon] Shoki, second year of [ Emperor] Tenji’s reign, second lunar month (Kitano-bon kun annotation): “Silla men wasted by fire four districts of the southern border of [Baekje .].” (Original text and modern annotation.) No need to thank me. ～ POKéTalker（＝◉＝） 00:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

fukureru
I realized that there are a few other likely cognates, pointing towards a root element puku.
 * → derivative
 * → derivative and related
 * See also the Sakura-Paris NKD entry for 膨ら, which describes the final ら as a suffix and points to related term ふくよか.
 * (possibly), -- the spelling could well be phono-semantic matching, given that part of the core meaning seems to be "plump"
 * → derivative and related
 * See also the Sakura-Paris NKD entry for 膨ら, which describes the final ら as a suffix and points to related term ふくよか.
 * (possibly), -- the spelling could well be phono-semantic matching, given that part of the core meaning seems to be "plump"
 * (possibly), -- the spelling could well be phono-semantic matching, given that part of the core meaning seems to be "plump"
 * (possibly), -- the spelling could well be phono-semantic matching, given that part of the core meaning seems to be "plump"
 * (possibly), -- the spelling could well be phono-semantic matching, given that part of the core meaning seems to be "plump"
 * (possibly), -- the spelling could well be phono-semantic matching, given that part of the core meaning seems to be "plump"
 * (possibly), -- the spelling could well be phono-semantic matching, given that part of the core meaning seems to be "plump"

In light of all the above, the root at the center of all this would seem to be OJP or jpx-pro ("plump? plumply? bulgingly?"), with a possible relationship to. (Although, the more I look at it, the more I think that the verb is probably unrelated to the adverbial / adjectival root...)

(Side note: as in the table above does not have any "to blow" sense that I'm aware of...)

HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)