User:Logomaniac/What is a word

This is a discussion that took place on Wiktionary's IRC channel on December 19, 2009 about what a word really is. I guess the outcome of it was that Wiktionary's current definition of word represents accurately what we thought was a word. And I'm going to start using 'quorblagging' too. . . ..

[12:00]  I'm going to put about six cleanup and attention tags on word [12:00]  http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word [12:00]  and phrase [12:00]  http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phrase [12:00]  and idiomatic [12:00]  http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idiomatic [12:00] heh [12:00] word isn't bad [12:00] well, the first three defs anyway [12:00]  we need better definitions [12:00] hehe [12:00]  .? word [12:00]  word â€” noun: 1. (linguistics) A distinct unit of language (sounds in speech or written letters) with a particular meaning, composed of one or more morphemes, and also of one or more phonemes that determine its sound pattern, 2. A distinct unit of language which is approved by some authority â[...] [12:01] I think our definition or word is pretty good [12:01]  OK then I want a less techy-sounding one [12:01]  .? idiomatic [12:01]  I want a more techy-sounding one. [12:01]  idiomatic — adjective: 1. Pertaining or conforming to the mode of expression characteristic of a language, 2. Resembling or characteristic of an idiom [12:01] wel, the composed of onwards is not definitino, it's clarification [12:02]  I want one that I can understand [12:02]  without several hours' worth of research [12:02]  Me too.:P [12:02] <Logomaniac> and I don't want to move to simple.wikt [12:02] <Logomaniac> even though razorflame keeps begging me to [12:03] <Leftmost> Morphemes and phonemes wouldn't take several hours. They're simple concepts. [12:03] word: The pieces which make up a language. In Latin based languages, such as English, French, and Spanish, it is a bunch of letters separated by spaces. [12:03] <Logomaniac> sdlksfdjk <-- but that is not a word [12:03] <Logomaniac> An elementary school student would know that [12:03] <Leftmost> cirwin, "peanut butter" is a compound. There's a space in there, though. [12:03] that's the simple.wikt defintiion [12:04] <Leftmost> Well, it's wrong. [12:04] I know [12:04] <Logomaniac> wow [12:04] <Leftmost> Also, "bunch"? [12:04] a bunch of letters separated by spaces [12:04] implies that there is at least one space in each word [12:04] <Leftmost> True. Didn't think of that. [12:06] <Leftmost> What does it say about me that as I pack to go visit family, I bring with me an SF novel, a book of absurdist plays, a grammar of Irish, an Irish dictionary, a book on data structures, and a number of papers about Irish syntax or computational implementation of syntactic theory? [12:06] GEEEEEK [12:06] in a freindly way [12:06] (i.e. two of the letters have been cunningly transposed) [12:08] <Leftmost> By "cunningly" I assume you mean "by the cunning craft of my fingers, without my prior knowledge". [12:08] something like that [12:08] <Logomaniac> word: A distinct unit of language, represented by sound in speech or symbols (as letters or pictograms) in writing which is used to represent a certain quantity or idea and consists of one or more morphemes as well as one or more phonemes [12:08] <Leftmost> Oh yeah, and a book on linear algebra and a book of short stories in Irish. [12:09] <Logomaniac> I dunno [12:09] <Logomaniac> our definition needs work [12:10] <Logomaniac> because if I use 'quorblagging' to mean ... I dunno, sleeping, it is '(linguistics) A distinct unit of language (sounds in speech or written letters) with a particular meaning, composed of one or more morphemes, and also of one or more phonemes that determine its sound pattern, ' but it is still not a word. [12:11] <Leftmost> Logomaniac, it's composed of one morpheme and one bit of nonsense. [12:11] a widely recognised unit of language? [12:11] <Mglovesfun> isn't it? [12:11] <Mglovesfun> it could be [12:11] <Leftmost> "quorblag" is not a morpheme. [12:11] <Logomaniac> .? morpheme [12:11] <club_butler> morpheme — noun: 1. (linguistics) The smallest linguistic unit within a word that can carry a meaning, such as "un-", "break", and "-able" in the word "unbreakable" [12:11] <Logomaniac> it has -ing [12:12] and blag [12:12] <Logomaniac> quorblag and -ing [12:12] <Leftmost> Yes, but it's not composed of morphemes. It contains one, but it isn't composed of them. [12:12] <Cassowaries> quorblag is a nonce morpheme [12:12] <Cassowaries> or quor is, and it has some relationship to blag [12:12] <Mglovesfun> yep [12:12] <Logomaniac> and why is quorblag not a morpheme? [12:12] <Logomaniac> or quor and blag [12:13] <Mglovesfun> indeed [12:13] <Leftmost> Cassowaries, perhaps an idiolectic morpheme, but that doesn't do anyone any good. [12:13] <Logomaniac> It is "The smallest linguistic unit within a word that can carry a meaning, " [12:13] <Leftmost> What meaning does it carry, outside of your mind? [12:13] <Cassowaries> I would interpret "quorblagging" (if it means "sleeping") as "stealing sleep" [12:13] <Logomaniac> note can carry instead of does carry :p [12:13] <Cassowaries> and therefore quor would mean sleep [12:13] <Cassowaries> so I impose meaning upon it [12:14] <Cassowaries> and therefore I impose morphemic status upon it  [12:14] <Logomaniac> mhm [12:14] <Logomaniac> exactly [12:14] <Logomaniac> and therefore quorblagging is a word according to our defiintion [12:14] <club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word [12:14] <Leftmost> Cassowaries, but how do you come to the conclusion that it means sleeping? In certain contexts, it might be possible, but in general not. [12:14] <Cassowaries> Leftmost, well, purely from being told [12:14] <Cassowaries> which is inelegant, but not invalid [12:15] <Logomaniac> how does one come to the conclusion that "sleeping" means sleeping? [12:15] <Cassowaries> and I would be perfectly happy calling "quorblagging" a word, even if I did not know what it meant [12:15] <Cassowaries> it's just a word I don't know [12:15] <Leftmost> True. So now it has word status and I see no problem with that. [12:15] <Leftmost> Logomaniac, language acquisition. [12:15] <Logomaniac> but it's still not really a word [12:15] <Leftmost> Sure it is. [12:15] <Leftmost> It's not a widely-accepted word, but it's a word. [12:16] <Cassowaries> yup [12:16] <Logomaniac> alright then [12:16] <Cassowaries> so there's a separate implication of "not a word" that we might want to deal with [12:17] <Logomaniac> right [12:17] <Cassowaries> people say, I don't know, "invalidness" is not a word [12:17] <Cassowaries> even though it has all the hallmarks of a word [12:17] <Logomaniac> because if I can make quorblagging a word, then what isn't a word? [12:17] "not a word" unless appears in 3 independant places spaced by a year? [12:17] would be useful if our defintion matched CFI :) [12:17] <Logomaniac> :) [12:18] <Cassowaries> Logomaniac, I mean there are therefore two meanings of 'word' [12:18] <Logomaniac> the technical one [12:18] I'd say quorblagging is a word, it's a nonce word [12:18] <Logomaniac> and ... the one that says [12:18] but not a word according to def 2 [12:18] <Cassowaries> with this meaning being something like "word (sense 1) that appears in common usage or a dictionary" [12:19] <Logomaniac> "any string of letters that lots of people use to mean something" [12:19] it's definitly not just letters [12:19] <Cassowaries> yeah, this is actually before we get into the multiple definitions of "word" used just within linguistics [12:19] <Logomaniac> alright, that was just off the top of my head [12:19] <Mglovesfun> gotta go soon [12:20] <Mglovesfun> pity, [12:20] <Cassowaries> syntactic words, prosodic words, orthographical words [12:20] <Cassowaries> etc etc [12:20] <Logomaniac> I think I'll save this discussion [12:21] <Mglovesfun> yes [12:21] <Mglovesfun> good discussion [12:21] <Leftmost> Cassowaries, the term "prosodic word" was used repeatedly in my phonology class in the context of OT, but our professor couldn't explain it. Any help? [12:21] <Mglovesfun> so "red herring" is a word [12:21] <Cassowaries> Mglovesfun, most definitely, but it's also two words [12:22] <Cassowaries> depending on what definition you're using [12:22] <Mglovesfun> probably for a linguist yes, but for the common man, no [12:22] <Mglovesfun> exactly [12:22] <Cassowaries> well, linguists just ignore spaces [12:22] <Mglovesfun> most people would tell me it's two words [12:22] <Cassowaries> "herringbone" is one word and two words as well [12:22] <Mglovesfun> lol [12:22] <Cassowaries> Leftmost, hmm [12:22] <Mglovesfun> my name is John [12:22] <Mglovesfun> would anyone ignore those spaces? [12:22] <Cassowaries> Mglovesfun, we ignore the spaces and then reconstruct what the words should be [12:23] <Cassowaries> so we'd end up with the same number of words as 'the common man' [12:23] <Mglovesfun> good one [12:23] <Cassowaries> but in "this is a red herring", we wouldn't [12:23] <Cassowaries> well, maybe [12:23] <Mglovesfun> see set phrase [12:23] <club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/set_phrase [12:23] <Cassowaries> anyway [12:24] <Mglovesfun> (needs t-gloss) [12:24] <Cassowaries> Leftmost, it's actually hard to adequately define [12:24] <Cassowaries> I find it intuitive, though [12:25] <Logomaniac> I (and most averaeg people you ask) would probably say "this is a red herring" is not a word, it's five words [12:25] <Logomaniac> but it's a phrase [12:25] "this is a red-herring" ? [12:26] <Logomaniac> ok, then, four [12:26] <Cassowaries> I would just say it's "four or five words" [12:26] <Cassowaries> so not very different [12:26] <Logomaniac> but red herring is two words which have one meaning [12:26] <Logomaniac> red-herring <- one word [12:26] <Leftmost> All I have to go on, though, is "prosody" and "word". The combination of the two doesn't lead me to an immediate understanding. [12:26] <Logomaniac> it is idiomatic then (: [12:27] <Cassowaries> anyway, hierarchy of prosodic constituents:  [12:27] <Cassowaries> mora - syllable - foot - prosodic word - phonological phrase - intonational phrase - phonological utterance  [12:28] <Leftmost> Ahh, so a unit composed of prosodic feet?  [12:28] <Cassowaries> yes, helpful huh  [12:28] <Leftmost> Well, works for me.:) [12:28] <Cassowaries> but it essentially means that "I'm" or "to go" are prosodic words [12:29] <Logomaniac> hmm [12:29] <Cassowaries> they happen to also be feet, and the former is also a syllable [12:29] <Cassowaries> but you know [12:29] <Leftmost> Yeah. [12:29] <Cassowaries> the latter is a syntactic word, right? [12:29] <Cassowaries> and the former is definitely not [12:31] <Logomaniac> .? syntactic [12:31] <club_butler> syntactic — adjective: 1. Of, related to or connected with syntax [12:31] <Logomaniac> >_> [12:31] <Logomaniac> .? syntax [12:31] <club_butler> syntax — noun: 1. A set of rules that govern how words are combined to form phrases and sentences, 2. (computing, countable) The formal rules of formulating the statements of a computer language [12:31] <Logomaniac> right [12:31] <Logomaniac> can I get a copy of those rules? [12:31] <Cassowaries> haha [12:31] <Cassowaries> do a masters in syntax [12:31] <Cassowaries> and you'll get a fifth of them [12:32] <Logomaniac> o_O [12:32] <Logomaniac> um [12:32] <Logomaniac> aren't they downloadable on the internet somewhere [12:32] <Logomaniac> or on wikipedia [12:32] <Cassowaries> by no means [12:33] <Logomaniac> </tongue-in-cheek> [12:33] <Cassowaries> they're in your head already though [12:33] <Leftmost> I took a class on syntax this semester. We got a really, really brief introduction to the theory up to 1985. [12:33] <Cassowaries> so you've already got more of a copy than linguistics has in total discovered [12:33] <Logomaniac> right... [12:33] *** opio has joined #wiktionary [12:33] <Logomaniac> ok [12:33] <Logomaniac> hello opio [12:34] <Logomaniac> opio: Without looking at a dictionary, what do you think of as a word? [12:34] <Cassowaries> incidentally [12:34] <Cassowaries> I just realised I don't know whether English diphthongs are monomoraic or bimoraic [12:34] as a word? [12:34] <Cassowaries> my instinct is that they're bimoraic, but I don't honestly know [12:35] uh [12:35] well. anything that conveys meaning, i suppose [12:35] are we differentiating between word and term? [12:35] <Cassowaries> so you'd call "un-" a word? [12:35] <Leftmost> Cassowaries, hmm. I'd guess bimoraic too, but not sure. [12:35] <Logomaniac> is 'quorblagging', which I made up to mean 'sleeping' about 15 minutes ago, a word [12:35] i'd call un- a prefix [12:35] <Cassowaries> but it conveys meaning, surely [12:35] <Leftmost> Is there any way they could be like, 1.5 morae? [12:36] <Cassowaries> dunno [12:36] <Cassowaries> probably not [12:36] yes, i suppose. i guess that brings up the question 'is a prefix a word' [12:36] <Cassowaries> I would say no [12:36] <Cassowaries> "anything that conveys meaning", or rather the smallest thing that can convey meaning, is a morpheme [12:36] i don't really care either way... this is one of those debates that never will get anywhere [12:36] <Mglovesfun> literally [12:36] <Cassowaries> which can be but is not a word [12:36] <club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/literally [12:37] *** Mglovesfun has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]") [12:37] <Cassowaries> anyway, Leftmost, I know languages vary on their treatment [12:37] perhaps, then, any non-affix that conveys meaning [12:37] <Cassowaries> and some, like Old English, have both monomoraic and bimoraic diphthongs [12:37] or [12:37] the things between spaces in a sentence [12:37] there, that's a word. [12:37] <Cassowaries> haha [12:37] <Logomaniac> but is 'quorblagging' a word? [12:38] it doesn't convey meaning to me [12:38] <Cassowaries> it means 'sleeping' [12:38] but then, neither do lots of words [12:38] because i don't know them [12:38] <Cassowaries> now is it a word? [12:38] <Logomaniac> If I tell you it means 'sleeping' [12:38] yeah, i caught that earlier [12:38] <Logomaniac> is it a word [12:38] yes [12:38] not necessarily a valid one lol [12:38] <Cassowaries> yeah [12:38] <Cassowaries> so Logomaniac, this is the discussion we've all just had [12:38] <Logomaniac> right [12:38] <Cassowaries> so at least know opio is like us [12:39] <Cassowaries> we know* [12:39] <Logomaniac> I'm getting another opinion tho [12:39] I dunno, it might be dangerous to have me in your group [12:39] <Logomaniac> How about "red herring", opio? Is that a word? [12:39] * opio tends to attract controversy [12:39] I would call red herring a term, at first glance [12:39] because it's two words with no hyphen [12:39] but I don't know what a term or word is "officially" [12:40] <Logomaniac> so you'd say "red herring" is a term, not a word [12:40] <Logomaniac> because it's two words [12:40] <Logomaniac> right? [12:41] it depends [12:41] does wiktionary include terms? [12:41] if not, then i would modify my opinions for the purposes of this conversation :D [12:41] but yes [12:41] <Logomaniac> we aren't talking about wikt >_> [12:41] <Logomaniac> alright [12:42] <Leftmost> Alright, I must away. Ta. [12:42] *** Leftmost has quit ("Ex-Chat") [12:42] <Logomaniac> soo... the question raised earlier but not answered [12:42] <Logomaniac> What then is not a word? [12:42] what isn't a word? [12:42] a sentence [12:42] >_> [12:42] <Logomaniac> >_> [12:42] define term [12:42] <know-it-all> 'term' is English: A limitation, restriction or regulation. terms and conditions  A word or phrase, especially one from a specialised area of knowledge. Relations among people. [12:42] lol [12:42] not quite what i was looking for [12:42] <Logomaniac> I suppose we'd all agree that 'ieoidsldas' is not a word [12:43] <Logomaniac> because it carries no meaning [12:43] none that i know [12:43] are names words? [12:43] <Logomaniac> and I just randomly typed it. [12:43] not all names carry meaning [12:43] especially negro names ^_^ [12:43] <Cassowaries> names carry meaning in the same way "I" carries meaning [12:43] <Cassowaries> it points out a person [12:43] <Logomaniac> But the name "opio" carries the meaning that it's you [12:43] yes [12:43] "A word or phrase, especially one from a specialised area of knowledge." [12:44] term^ [12:44] so term is even more broad than word [12:44] so i guess i would call red herring a phrase [12:44] <Logomaniac> term needs a better definition [12:44] i guess i would have to * [12:44] <Logomaniac> I'd call red herring both a term and phrase [12:45] well, if a term can be a word or a phrase, then yes [12:45] in the same way that a square is a rectangle [12:45] <Logomaniac> but ieoidsldas becomes a word as soon as I give it a meaning? [12:45] <Cassowaries> I dunno, it might be dangerous to have me in your group [12:45] <Logomaniac> If I give it the meaning "blanket" then is ieoidsldas a word? [12:45] yes, but what would the point be? lol [12:45] <Cassowaries> you're in the group of "people who aren't really sure but have various conflicting intuitions I guess" [12:45] <Cassowaries> which includes most linguists [12:45] <Cassowaries> so I'm happy [12:46] <Logomaniac> Trying to figure out what isn't a word [12:46] well, on wiktionary there are a number of people with whom i make absolutely no attempt to be civil [12:46] Too much effort vs not enough payoff [12:46] why logo? [12:47] <Cassowaries> Logomaniac, yes, it would be a word then [12:47] <Logomaniac> So that we can have better definitions at word, term and phrase [12:47] <club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/term | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phrase [12:47] <Cassowaries> an unusual one, but a word [12:47] <Logomaniac> alright [12:47] <Logomaniac> so a word is only a string of letters (or symbols or sounds) that carries a meaning [12:47] why symbols? [12:47] <Logomaniac> chinese [12:48] that would make mathematical equations words [12:48] <Cassowaries> but it would also be a word if you didn't give it a meaning but just said "I've never liked ieoidsldas" (and there was no transmission error) [12:48] i wouldn't use the words symbols, it's too vague [12:48] <Logomaniac> alright [12:48] <Cassowaries> which I suppose carries an implicit meaning [12:48] but i can't think of anything else offhand that would describe what chinese characters are [12:48] <Cassowaries> so we're all leaning towards the semantic interpretation of what a word is [12:48] <Cassowaries> which is pretty much our definition [12:48] <Logomaniac> pretty much [12:49] is logograph a word? [12:49] <Logomaniac> but does 'ieoidsldas' contain morphemes? [12:49] define logograph [12:49] <know-it-all> 'logograph' is English: a character or symbol that represents a word or phrase; a logogram. [12:49] <Logomaniac> or phonemes? [12:49] <Cassowaries> Logomaniac, one [12:49] there, that's what a chinese symbol can be [12:49] <Cassowaries> we don't know what phonemes it consists of  [12:49] <Logomaniac> ideogram [12:49] <Cassowaries> its graphemes are very unusual for English [12:49] <Logomaniac> hmm [12:49] <Cassowaries> or rather, its combination of graphemes [12:50] <Cassowaries> but we assume it contains phonemes which correspond, however loosely, to the graphemes [12:50] morphemes are the smallest units of language that carry meaning, right? [12:50] <Cassowaries> yes [12:50] like affixes and such [12:50] <Cassowaries> but also like "apple" [12:50] ah yes [12:50] i guess that would make everything in chinese a morpheme [12:50] i mean every individual character^ [12:51] <Cassowaries> it means they represent morphemes, sure [12:51] <Cassowaries> I say that in that pedantic way [12:51] <Logomaniac> hm [12:51] <Cassowaries> because you both keep talking about "symbols" [12:51] <Cassowaries> which is true [12:51] <Cassowaries> but morphemes are symbols [12:52] <Cassowaries> (phonemes are not) [12:52] <Logomaniac> sooo ... our definition of word needs no changing [12:52] <club_butler> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word [12:52] <Logomaniac> ?? [12:52] <Cassowaries> I don't think so [12:52] <Cassowaries> in that it's accurate [12:52] <Logomaniac> define phrase [12:52] <know-it-all> 'phrase' is English: A short written or spoken expression. (grammar) A word or group of words that functions as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence, usually consisting of a head, or central word, and elaborating words. (music) A small section of music in a larger piece.. [12:52] <Logomaniac> How about that [12:52] I wouldn't worry about improving our english definitions [12:53] if things keep going the way they have been, wiktionary is always going to suck [12:53] from some aspect or another [12:53] <Cassowaries> well, that has the same drawback that our definition of 'word' has [12:53] <Logomaniac> well, if we improve the definitions of word, phrase, idiom, term etc [12:53] <Cassowaries> it focuses on one aspect of language (in this case syntax, in word's case morphology) [12:53] <Cassowaries> to the exclusion of other aspects [12:53] <Logomaniac> then we can improve CFI [12:53] <Logomaniac> and then improve wikt [12:54] <Cassowaries> so actually [12:54] <Cassowaries> if we say "prosodic word" and try to interpret it using our definitions [12:54] <Cassowaries> we're going to get the wrong answer [12:55] <Cassowaries> because a prosodic word is not about morphemes, in that it's blind to whether they exist or not [12:55] <Cassowaries> anyway [12:56] <Cassowaries> I'm not confident this is going to get anywhere [12:56] *** Typhoon has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.15/2009101601]") [12:56] <Cassowaries> and I need to run off now [12:56] <Cassowaries> so trah [12:56] <Logomaniac> cya