User:Skahmed23/Sandbox/Basque

Basque non-finite forms
The forms generated are:
 * Perfect stem (etorri)
 * Imperfect stem (etortzen)
 * Future stem (etorriko)
 * Short stem (etor)
 * Verbal noun (etortze)

The tables are created with this template.

Basque synthetic forms
This is a whole different kettle of fish, and one that I'm not ready to start thinking about. Luckily, it only applies to 30-odd verbs so this could be done on a case-by-case basis if necessary. There will hopefully be 4 different templates for the tables:
 * NOR
 * NOR-NORI
 * NOR-NORK
 * NOR-NORI-NORK (two tables: one singular NOR, one plural NOR)

NOR Verbs
The following verbs would require this template to be used:


 * izan
 * edin
 * joan
 * etorri
 * egon
 * ibili
 * etzan

Note: Etzan only conjugates in this way. Unlike the others, it cannot take a dative argument synthetically.

NOR Templates

 * The general template
 * Auto-generating template

Only 5 of 7 verbs can be automatically conjugated with the regular template:


 * The verb edin changes stem and becomes irregular in the potential.
 * The verb ibili has different plural markers depending on the mood of the verb, and so it cannot be auto-generated in the same way.

The auto-generating template uses parameters 7-12 for these verbs, to define the stem changes and the irregular imperatives.


 * The verb izan is highly irregular and so cannot be auto-generated accurately.
 * The verb etzan only has forms for the indicative present, the indicative past and the potential hypothetic.

Here are the other two verbs, where all 49 terms are listed separately (i.e. without computer generation):

NOR-NORI Verbs
The following verbs would require this template to be used:


 * izan
 * edin
 * joan
 * etorri
 * egon
 * ibili
 * atxeki
 * ekin
 * erion
 * jarraiki

Note: The last four (atxeki, ekin, erion, jarraiki) only conjugate in this way. They cannot be conjugated with the NOR paradigm.

NOR-NORI Templates

 * Table for irregulars and basis
 * For most verbs

I am testing this template out on the verbs izan and etorri:


 * For deponent verbs without indicative hypothetic and potential present/past

This will apply to atxeki and jarraiki (it would also apply in part to erion and ekin but since they have many more missing forms, they won't be auto-generated):

Here are the others:

NOR-NORK Verbs
The following verbs would require this template to be used:


 * izan/ukan
 * ekarri
 * erabili
 * eraman
 * eroan
 * eduki
 * ezagutu
 * ezan


 * io/esan
 * egin
 * entzun
 * ikusi
 * jakin


 * erran (ind hypo only)
 * iharduki
 * iraun
 * irudi
 * jardun

NOR-NORK Templates
For these verbs, 4 templates will be required.
 * Table
 * Regular (applies to ukan-ezan)
 * Only 3rd person NOR (applies to io-jakin)
 * Only 3s NOR (applies to erran-jardun)

Tested on ukan, ekarri and erabili

Discussion

 * I've made a few changes. Specifically:
 * Expanding the title format to contain the lemma and more information.
 * Adding a header pointing out what case (absolutive) each column is
 * Removing extra “|” at the beginning of lines that contain only one cell. Incidentally, we could define all the cells in one row in one code line with the  syntax.
 * Equalized the spacing of the columns so that the longer person titles (2nd sg informal, 2nd sg formal) would not be wider.
 * Moved a few of the row color definitions into the row header so as to remove redundant definitions.
 * Feel free to any of those back if you wish. If you decide to keep the “Absolutive” header, I wonder whether the person-number cells should be a different color. Also, sorry if it seems like I am butting in to your template.


 * Thanks for the changes, the only ones I've changed are the ones involving the use of case names (absolutive) since question terms are usually preferred when referring to verb paradigms (especially since verbs tend to have more than one paradigm, this method allows for easier naming of the different paradigms depending on the different arguments involved).


 * Great. Do all of my changes make sense syntactically? I want to make sure you understand everything for your own future knowledge and so you can effectively patrol these templates.


 * Yeah I've understood what you've been doing. Most of the time it is things that I wanted to do but either forgot or didn't know how to do, so I am grateful either way. Your help so far has been invaluable.
 * Is there anyway to make it so that the form given by the template depends on the last letter of the stem? I'm trying to create a general template that will auto-generate a table and I'd quite to make it such that if the verb ends in a vowel, a suffix is -n, and if it ends in a consonant, the suffix is -en. Is this possible?


 * Using you can do things like  →  and  →.


 * I have tried to make an auto-generating NOR template, but the formatting seems to have gone a bit awry. Do you think you could try to diagnose the issue? I'm guessing it has something to do with the switch function or the fact that I put text after a variable.


 * Yeah, you just had newline characters after the parameters which were causing problems. I'm looking to see if I can strip the whitespace automatically. Is there any verb that would contain a capital letter? If not, I can do something cheaty to get around this problem in the future.


 * I can't see any verb that would need to contain a capital letter, no, so feel free to do whatever.

You may now add newlines to your heart's content. PS: After carefully examining these verb forms, I can say that Basque is very silly.
 * Is there any way to define a variable within a template? I'm trying to get rid of the repeated switch parts of the eu-conj-nor template, and just label a variable after them and use that instead. I'd also use it in other codes whenever I use a switch function because it can be a bit long-winded, and a pain to repeat again and again.
 * You're stretching the boundaries of what transclusion can do. There is no variable plugin on Wiktionary. There is such a plugin but we do not use it. If we wanted to Luaïze these templates, we could do it that way, but if what I am understanding is true, this only applies to a handful of verbs? Just let the code be verbose and I will se what I can do to fix it.
 * Also, as I said in my edit text for eu-conj-nor-etzan, does this template only apply to the one verb "etzan"? If so, you should just hard code the values.
 * In a related matter, I think the conventional names for these templates would be  instead of  . Could we change them over either now or when we move them into actual use (though I'd prefer now...)?
 * The variable thing was just a thought to tidy up the code. If there's no easy way of doing it then it will work fine without. The etzan template was made just for that verb, and I have now hard coded the values (although I'm unsure about what to do with the template page now that it's redundant). And I agree that the change should be made now. I'll move them all over asap.
 * Also, related to moving pages, is there anyway to move a page which automatically deletes the old page? Or would you still need an admin to delete it for you?
 * Just slap a template at the top of the page and I'm sure some friendly admin like I.S.M.E.T.A. will remove them for you.
 * The behavior of the general template is now that if no value is specified, it places a centered dash in that row. Are you going to want these pages to link conjugated forms, because I can add in linking functionality if you'd like?
 * What do you mean by linking functionality?
 * Yeah that was a tad unclear. Do you want me to make is so that the listed forms link to pages? So in the izan table, naiz, haiz, da, ... would all link to their respective pages. The implication of doing this linking would be that one day we might add all those forms.
 * Ohhh I understand what you mean now. That would be lovely thanks.
 * I sure hope you are right that there are no capitalized verbs in Basque (like Balkanize in English) or this is gonna be a problem. If there are, I will have to find another way to trim the whitespace.

Well I've never come across any, so let's hope not. Thanks so much for editing all those templates.
 * I added some imperatives, That's a thing, right?
 * Imperatives do exist but they can be pretty archaic/rare/literary. You'll often see periphrastic forms replace it or, in the 2nd person, the lemma is often used as well. It would be good to include them anyway though, for reference.
 * Okay I'm going to make it so that in the eu-conj-nor-pot template, you have to enter all the imperative forms as one of the verbs (edin) is misbehaving.
 * Would it help if I made it so that the imperative rows did not appear at all unless the forms were specified? Actually, I can make any column only show if it has members if you want (though, it may be nice to have dashes showing that the forms don't exist, so never mind). Just tell me if you ever want rows hidden.
 * Actually we can make it so you can override any particular form if you like? Then you could have the auto generation normally. Or if this table only applies to a few verbs that will be hand coded, I guess it doesn't matter.
 * I've just started working on the eu-conj-nornori-table template, which conjugates for the dative as well, in case you want to see the behemoth we'll be facing. And yes that is 343 terms.
 * May I move the dative markers to the other side and fiddle with the layout?
 * The move of the dative makers was a good call. I'm having difficulties as I've unintentionally broken your lovely pattern trying to copy and paste sections of code from one part of the template to another. Also, the numbering of the parameters is taking an eternity. I'm on something like 150 out of a total 252 (if my calculator is correct), so I will finish tomorrow if you can't bring yourself to do it.
 * If you are continuing to add numbers right now, please stop! I have made an update fixing the colors and do not want your data to be lost. I will continue to add them.
 * I stopped just after I posted that comment just in case, so we should be okay.
 * I finished and double checked. I think everything is right now.
 * Just added a little #if parser in the imperatives for the nor verbs to provide the option for all of them to create an imperative since I've noticed a pattern emerging where the imperative kicks up a fuss, so it would be nice to be able to just specify the irregular ones and let the automatic creation do the rest. I think it should be used for all the other verb types, just since some verbs don't have imperatives, or one (or more) of the imperatives changes etc.

Tried to fix imperatives and only made them worse. Need a three way system now: 1 to auto generate, 2 for user-entered terms and 3 for blank spaces. I feel like a #switch function is in order but I cannot work out how. Auto-generate could be triggered by nothing, User-entered by the fact that it's user-entered and maybe blank spaces are if you just type a single dash? Not sure how it would be coded though.
 * I can do that. Gimme a sec.
 * Ok, I have changed the base templates so that if a hyphen, "-", nothing, or whitespace gets to those tables, it will become a blank cell. Anything else will be inserted. This way, for templates with auto-generation, text will override, hyphens will blank, and nothing will auto-generate.
 * NOR-NORI table finally finished. If you have any edits you'd like to make to the code, feel free. I'm going to create another template that only has indicative present, indicative past and potential hypothetic as there are 3 verbs that applies to and it would be a pain to type out all 200 and something forms for all of them.
 * Looks fine to me. Maybe a little verbose at times, but fine.
 * where'd you go? I miss this project! — JohnC5 23:16, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * HI sorry, I had to stop doing this all the time since I had exams to be working on, but now they're nearly done so I'll start working on it again. The next big thing would be probably to start working on the irregular nor-nori verbs then moving onto the transitives. Skahmed23 (talk) 05:36, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you still interested in continuing this project? Sorry I've been so dormant for a while.

Questions because John is a n00b at Basque
I have a few questions I need answered (feel free to answer under each heading):
 * 1) How many verbs use Template:eu-conj-nor-pot? If it is only 2, then you might as well hard code them.
 * Only 2 yes, I created the template because it was quicker than typing out all the forms.
 * Whatever you say chief.
 * 1) Is passive voice a thing?
 * No, instead word order changes to emphasise topic/focus etc.
 * Yes, ergative-absolutive syntax, of course. Me promise me will brain better next time.
 * 1) Can we make tables later on for the periphrastic forms (i.e. stem + the appropriate auxiliary form)? I imagine the majority of verbs will just be periphrastic, right?
 * Periphrastic forms would be very easy to code, and apply to nearly all verbs. However, I think it would be better just to have a section saying which stem and aux verb to use, since including ALL forms would be very time- and space-consuming, and also unnecessary.
 * Sounds good to me!
 * 1) Can we also do allocutives for the verbs that have them?
 * All synthetic verbs have allocutives, however in Euskara Batua (Standard Basque), they are not used.
 * Aww, that's too bad. I love how weird allocutives are.
 * 1) I guess what I am getting at is that I want this to be the most compendious source for Basque available...
 * Okay I suggest you read the Basque verbs Wikipedia page. It is very comprehensive and explains how all the forms are created. It is not 100% inclusive but it's a very good point of reference. I also make extensive use of an adizkitegia that I installed as an app on my phone. It automatically generates forms so I can check what we have done.
 * I'm not saying I want to know how Basque works (I don't have enough remaining brain cells for that). I just want our conjugation tables to be the best.