User talk:Κλειδίον

Equinox ◑ 23:01, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

thank you for greek
Thank you for ελληνικά, δημοτική, νέα ελληνικά, Demotic Greek, etc. sarri.greek (talk) 11:45, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

This makes me wonder again, if there is a common term like "Non-Early Modern English" for all Modern English excluding Early Modern English. Late Modern English wouldn't really fit, as in a future Post-Modern English time, there might be Middle Modern English and Late Modern English. This blog has "non-Early Modern English", but it seems to be a protologism. "Late Modern English" - whatever it is supposed to mean - occurs in this book (by H. Poutsma, from 1916), this book and this book. Another way to differ between Early and Non-Early forms is to redefine the basic term like this: Modern English is English since ca. 1500, Early Modern English is English from ca. 1500 till ca. 1700, and then Modern English gets redefined into a narrow sense for English since ca. 1700.
 * You are welcome,.
 * By the way, there might be a few more terms for Modern or New Greek language forms:
 * "Mikti" (found in this book; the term should come from or ): Katharevousa with some (more) Dimotiki — for others this might simply be a form of Katharevousa.
 * "Attikouza" (found on Wikipedia; in English the term is a protologism, but there might be another and more common term): Attic-oriented (Modern) Greek, more classic-oriented and less dimotiki-oriented than Katharevousa.
 * "Early Modern Greek" (from this book; similar to Early Modern English, Early New High German): Modern Greek from ca. 1500 till ca. 1800.
 * -Κλειδίον (talk) 14:06, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

This book has it together with καθαρεύουσα; this book gives it as "Reinsprache" [pure language] and contrasts it with "Volkssprache" [people language] or "dēmotikē", this one gives it as "Hochsprache" [high language] and contrasts it with "Umgangssprache" [colloquial language] or "Demotiki" (Reinsprache and Hochsprache are terms used in Modern Greek context for καθαρεύουσα). BTW: In a result with a clear definition, it's part of pre-1500 Greek: "attikizousa greek (the elaborated imitation that many people in the hellenistic and later in the east roman/byzantine times tried)" (quora.com). It makes me wonder, if there was no Modern Greek Attikizousa and only proponents of such a language form, or if the definition lacks something or is only a narrow sense. If one says that Modern Greek is all (non-Tsakonian, non-Pontic, non-Italian) Greek after 1500, there could be both, pre-Modern Greek Attikizousa (till 1500) and Modern Greek Attikizousa (after 1500), which would be a form of Modern Greek.
 * Thank you I shall study your recommended links. -Bubenik book has term Kathareousa which would remind of 'clean+streaming' fused, instead of Katharevousa=cleansing; I am sure there must be a reason.  The senses mikti-dimotiki-kath etc, had political connotations in the previous century (1901 Gospel riots, 2 killed at 1903 'Orestia' riots). Now the words do not carry such a heavy psychological colour (no one says 'malliari' or 'mikti' today. Young people do not know katharevousa, regional idioms have died out). There has always been a conservative cloud in the sky of greek. The Greek language question is over. Attikizousa ἀττικίζουσα "quasi-attic" is considered a protologism? Is it not just a transliteration... There is also αρχαΐζουσα/arxa`izusa/ (quasi-ancient = extreme katharevousa). Ancient greek; -something admired-, but also a burden on the shoulders of descendants: often hindered creativity.
 * As for dating: for me, a non-linguist, three waves are easily understood: ancient-medieval times-new times; subdivided in old/early-middle-late. Probably in the future this 3fold pattern will be applied to epochs. We are now in epoch2.ancient, it seems. I like your Early-Modern 1500-1700: very useful. And now, I start studying your links. You are always enlightening! sarri.greek (talk) 20:13, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, especially for the riot-links and the Modern Greek terms.
 * Kathareousa: Compared with other results from Google Books, "Kathareousa" seems to be another form (maybe a misspelling?) or at least a synonym of "Katharevousa":
 * Attikouza, Attikizousa: Google's only result for Attikouza (only one i, no s) is Wikipedia and there it is used as an English term like English Katharevousa. It thus looks like a protologism. For Attikizousa (two i, one s) there is only one results at Google Books which has it in italics and quotations marks. As for web results, Google has a few more results, sometimes usages as an English term, sometimes mentionings and possible transcriptions. As a real English term, a borrowing from Modern Greek, it would still be a protologism.
 * links: The links weren't meant to be recommendations as if I like the text, they were just sources were I found a term or definition.
 * --Κλειδίον (talk) 22:00, 30 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Some terms, dear
 * 1) Ἀττικ(ός) (Attic) + -ίζω (suffix = i behave like...) > verb ἀττικίζω = "I behave/speak/write like an Attic (but I am not an original)", I am an ἀττικίζων, and my language is ἀττικίζουσα. You can see that Attikouza is just an accident :-)
 * ἀττικίζοντες = authors atticizing, wrote from Koine hellenistic times through mediaeval. Attikizousa is an epithet, which labelled the language of these authors, and then, became a term for linguists. In New Times (1700s, 1800s) the trend persisted, reappeared (here is your Modern Greek Attikizousa) as Katharevousa and when extreme, we called it: > ἀρχαΐζων > verb ἀρχαΐζω = archaic, using archaisms. All these are not 'periods' of language, they are just an intentional 'trend/style'. (in the meantime, language developed normally under all this intellectual fog).
 * 2) Kathareousa could be a phonetization of how one e.g. italian would manage to pronounce καθαρεύουσα / Katharevousa. I dont' know the exact feeling of the words Reinsprache and Hochsprache but I presume they are different from Kath which was a posh articial official contraption of a language, now dead and buried.
 * 3) δημοτικός Demotic Greek = of the people, δημώδης is a posh synonym to describe folk poetry, etc.
 * 4) μαλλιαρή="hairy" was a nickname for extreme demotic (something like: you hairy hippie!). It is dated.
 * 5) μεικτή mixed. Either: some Demotic words in Kath. Or: some Kath. words in Demotic. This second version became:
 * 6) καθομιλουμένη And this became the official standard 'modern greek'
 * >>If one says that Modern Greek is all<< well, if a term, it means the Neo-Hellenic of 20th century as crystallized/filtered through all that past rubble, as officially taught in schools. If an adjective, it means Greek of the New Times, and includes all that has been written and spoken. The is no 'Hoch' language now, there is the language of the learned, but it is not a 'variety'; just a matter of educational level. sarri.greek (talk) 16:21, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Dear, thank you, and sorry for the late reply (I was busy during the week and will be so the next weeks):
 * From what I've read somewhere, Katharevousa wasn't as classic-oriented as Attikizousa but was intented to be a middle form between Attikizousa and Dimitiki.
 * In the context of (Modern) Greek, and  are somewhat calqued and refer to Katharevousa.
 * Late 20th and 21st century Modern Greek without spiritus and the traditional diacritics is known in English as or, and is a sub-form of  (in the sense of "Greek after ca. 1500"). (In this book it is: "Standard Modern Greek (SMG) is the variety that is written and spoken today by moderately educated Greeks in the urban centers.")
 * Many greetings, Κλειδίον (talk) 11:47, 7 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Dear
 * 1 Katharevousa, yes, was mildly archaic, but sometimes it became very archaic. We use the term Attikizousa for older historical SIMILAR trends: 'revive the glorious ancient language' The difference is: Attikizousa happened a few centuries after Attic dialect. Kath happened 20 centuries after! which made it an absolutely monstrous artificial thing. The Greek language question was unlike the 'varieties' of learned versus non-learned of other european languages. The equivalent would be: France, deciding all of a sudden to impose Latin again, and ban standard French as illegal (my father would be FIRED from his job if he wrote in Standard Demotic, in the 1960s! only Kath was allowed.)
 * 3 +diacritics polytonic or no-diacritics (monotonic): no, monotonic is not a sub-form. It is just a typographic simplification.
 * 3b SMG is what is now a balanced language: Demotic plus learned forms via Katharevousa, or via New Testament, or via the obligatory ancient greek lessons we all have at school. (dialects have died out, after TV and RADIO were introduced. Greek nowadays is more uniform, 'Koine' than ever before)
 * I am impressed and puzzled on why you are so interested in greek and its adventures. sarri.greek (talk) 12:18, 7 October 2018 (UTC)