User talk:نعم البدل

''Hi, small note – Even though it may seem like I'm online, I might not respond right away. I might be online to quickly dump my notes on Wiktionary before they disappear from my thoughts, and not have time to reply! !''
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سماپت
Three uses of this term are: 1:https://www.rekhta.org/nazms/haat-dopahar-tak-v-sudhakar-rao-nazms?lang=ur 2:https://www.facebook.com/103918755700987/posts/113286171430912/?mibextid=jtWzXIAxfKx1VBOC 3:https://www.dw.com/ur/%D9%85%D8%A7%DA%BA-%D8%AC%DB%8C-%DA%A9%D8%A7-%D8%B1%DB%8C%DA%88%DB%8C%D9%88-%D8%A8%DA%86%D9%BE%D9%86-%DA%A9%D8%A7-%D8%A8%DB%8C-%D8%A8%DB%8C-%D8%B3%DB%8C-%D8%A7%D9%88%D8%B1-%D8%B1%D8%AD%DB%8C%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%DB%81-%DB%8C%D9%88%D8%B3%D9%81%D8%B2%D8%A6%DB%8C-%DA%A9%DB%8C-%D8%A2%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B2/a-59501164 4:https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=VyyZgZFz3cQC&q=%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%BE%D8%AA&dq=%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%BE%D8%AA&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi218_g_rmDAxXvRmwGHWt0BPEQ6AF6BAgMEAM#%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%BE%D8%AA গহীনঅরণ্য (talk) 09:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

'Old Hindi' (continued, part 3)

 * Let me know if it makes more sense for Middle Hindi to be a full-fledged language rather than an etymological language. CAT:Urdu terms derived from Middle Hindi has over 20 entries now. Middle Hindi would need to be a full-fledged language if there is a reason to make a distinction between Middle Hindi and Old Hindi such as for spellings or quotations. However, it is important to remember what you said earlier:
 * [this may simply highlight] the borrowings during the different stages (and the changes in meanings), however, there's not much difference between native Old Hindi vocab


 * There is at least one potential issue with making Middle Hindi a full-fledged language. Although Old Braj text could possibly be a descendant of Old Hindi, it cannot be a descendant of Middle Hindi because they were contemporaneous. However, since there is very little coverage of Braj, this is not a pressing issue.


 * I created my first Perso-Arabic Middle Hindi entry at . Having Middle Hindi as an etymological language with the parent of Old Hindi seems to be working for entries and descendants trees because it being treated as a later variety of Old Hindi. Perhaps showing an unattested Devanagari equivalent on the headword line would not be appropriate since Old Hindi and Middle Hindi are not classical languages.

Kutchkutch (talk) 20:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Let me know if it makes more sense for Middle Hindi to be a full-fledged language rather than an etymological language – For the moment, I don't see a need to make Middle Hindi a fully-fledged language. I don't intend on making any specific Middle Hindi lemmas so making it subordinate to Old Hindi is fine in my opinion, because for the moment I do like that there's a bit of leniency between Old Hindi and Middle Hindi. Making Middle Hindi a fully fledged language even though there's not much to go off for the minute, might seem a bit haste, unless you have some plans for it. A lot of Urdu lemmas need to be either sorted out or added as well, which a bit higher on my to-do list. نعم البدل (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Let me know if it makes more sense for Middle Hindi to be a full-fledged language rather than an etymological language – For the moment, I don't see a need to make Middle Hindi a fully-fledged language. I don't intend on making any specific Middle Hindi lemmas so making it subordinate to Old Hindi is fine in my opinion, because for the moment I do like that there's a bit of leniency between Old Hindi and Middle Hindi. Making Middle Hindi a fully fledged language even though there's not much to go off for the minute, might seem a bit haste, unless you have some plans for it. A lot of Urdu lemmas need to be either sorted out or added as well, which a bit higher on my to-do list. نعم البدل (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Making Middle Hindi a fully fledged language even though there's not much to go off for the minute, might seem a bit haste
 * Yes, that's true, especially considering that there's not much material on Middle Hindi in Devanagari. I just wanted to see what you have to say about it, so thanks for the input.


 * A lot of Urdu lemmas need to be either sorted out or added as well, which a bit higher on my to-do list
 * Creating entries for historical languages may certainly require more time compared to modern languages.
 * Kutchkutch (talk) 00:51, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kutchkutch There's also the issue of linking to Wikipedia but no such article exists. 178.120.10.176 21:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Terms from Prakrit

 * For Urdu & Shahmukhi Punjabi etymologies from Prakrit would it be better to show Prakrit in the Brahmi script or Devanagari? If there is no reason to choose one or the other, then Brahmi would be preferable since that would have been the original script when Prakrit was a spoken language.


 * My impression is that speakers of [Pakistani] Urdu and Punjabi are generally unfamiliar with Devanagari, while Indian speakers of Urdu & Punjabi are generally familiar with Devanagari. If Devanagari is to be displayed in etymology sections instead of Brahmi it can be done so as ur or ur if there is a Devanagari redirect page.


 * Thanks for editing the descendants tree at the Sanskrit entry निद्रा. However, since there is a large descendants tree at the Prakrit entry 𑀡𑀺𑀤𑁆𑀤𑀸, perhaps it would be better to put all the Prakrit-derived descendants at the Prakrit entry and put inc-pra see desc next to the Prakrit term at the Sanskrit entry. Kutchkutch (talk) 21:12, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * would it be better to show Prakrit in the Brahmi script or Devanagari? – It makes no difference to me. If you're referring to my change at, it wasn't meant to be anything objective, lol – I was trying something out and forgot to change the Prakrit lemma back to the Brahmi script. Brahmi or Devanagari, either is fine.
 * perhaps it would be better to put all the Prakrit-derived descendants at the Prakrit entry and put Oh right, yeah a desctree would probably be better, I was just fixing the Urdu and Punjabi lemmas! نعم البدل (talk) 22:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * ↑ speakers of Urdu and Punjabi are generally unfamiliar with Devanagari...
 * what was meant was: speakers of Pakistani Urdu and Punjabi are generally unfamiliar with Devanagari...
 * it wasn't meant to be anything objective, lol...Brahmi or Devanagari, either is fine
 * Thanks for the clarification. If you didn't know already, there exists a typing aid at MOD:typing-aids/data/inc-pra for Brahmi, so inc-pra and inc-pra both display 𑀡𑀺𑀤𑁆𑀤𑀸.
 * I was just fixing the Urdu and Punjabi lemmas!
 * That is understandable because if the intention is to just fix one or two languages, then restructuring the entire descendants tree is too large of a task.
 * Kutchkutch (talk) 00:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

vocalisation of ہوے
Hi,

Just a friendly reminder-request to review the inflection of per, if you're still interested in it.

Also Module:number list/data/ur has a number of numerals with bad or no vocalisations and no transliterations. If it's too much work to review, maybe this module should be reduced (0 to 10 or 10 to 20, etc) or deleted?

To make a template similar to hi-cardinals, the above list needs to be cleaned. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Yess! I'm sorry it went over my head. On a first glance, it does contain mistakes. Could I ask why you didn't just use Template:ur-conj-v? And yes, I fix the number module for Urdu! نعم البدل (talk) 19:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @نعم البدل: Thanks for the response. I'm note if ur-conj-v produces the correct results for this verb.
 * Please ping me when you're done with the list or decide to shorten/abandon it. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:29, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi I have made a couple of small edits to Module:number list/data/ur but it's not easy to edit. I recommend copying to text to a some sandbox page. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Quadmix77
I noticed this user has been adding Punjabi pronunciations recently, could you check them out when you have time? Rodrigo5260 (talk) 15:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

"ai"
Sorry for another ping. Is this a correct vocalisation in Urdu to produce "ai": ‎? Found this in Rekhta. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)


 * [ɛ] (not prolonged) in foreign words, usually becomes a short 'e' ([e] or [ɛ]) in Urdu which is typically represented with a kasrah, so the correct vocalisation would be or . Rekhta and UDB include both fatha, and a kasrah (which I assumed is kept from older dictionaries) to represent both spellings but that's because neither a fatha, nor a kasrah is exactly [ɛ]. نعم البدل (talk) 00:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I have correct to use a kasra at necktie. I've also added both and . So the Urdu section shows multiple variants now. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see you corrected to . There is a Hindi spelling and wouldn't be  more accurate - matching both English and Hindi? (It doesn't have to match, of course, you will know better).
 * Rekhta uses, which doesn't seem right. Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that Hindi borrowings from English tend to be a mix of pronunciation and transliteration. Urdu is mainly pronunciation, and the spelling becomes approximated to the nearest vowel. I'm actually wrong in this case, since necktie has evolved into but also  not . نعم البدل (talk) 01:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

سمکالین
Greetings

Three uses of this term are: 1: https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=pv6xEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT30&lpg=PT30&dq=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86+urdu&source=bl&ots=KbeDF0GiZQ&sig=ACfU3U3aM5QvSN4dCZiYix8Cz0BQ_iuc-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijl_Hf4tSDAxX2zDgGHTznA604ChDoAXoECAcQAg#v=onepage&q=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86%20urdu&f=false 2: https://www.hindsamachar.in/national-news/news/forced-population-displacement-is-against-human-development-38019 3: https://m.thewireurdu.com/article/ravi/55520

These term must be in Urdu Wiktionary Kingfolker255 (talk) 17:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)


 * – You will have to point out where the word is being employed in the first citation. The second citation is valid. The third one is a quote, please refer to the Use-Mention distinction policy. نعم البدل (talk) 09:11, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The uses of this term are found in old works are on these links
 * 1:
 * https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=pv6xEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT30&lpg=PT30&dq=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86+urdu&source=bl&ots=KbeDF0GiZQ&sig=ACfU3U3aM5QvSN4dCZiYix8Cz0BQ_iuc-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijl_Hf4tSDAxX2zDgGHTznA604ChDoAXoECAcQAg#v=onepage&q=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86%20urdu&f=false
 * 2:
 * https://www.hindsamachar.in/national-news/news/forced-population-displacement-is-against-human-development-38019
 * 3:
 * https://www.hindsamachar.in/top-news/news/india-s-technological-advancement-self-sufficiency-bandaru-dattatreya-30904
 * 4:
 * https://m.thewireurdu.com/article/ravi/55520
 * 5:
 * https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=lXmYas5iWWMC&q=%D8%AA%D8%AA%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86+urdu&dq=%D8%AA%D8%AA%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86+urdu&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBiY7PpoeEAxUqwTgGHSTpBD8Q6AF6BAgFEAM#%D8%AA%D8%AA%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86%20urdu
 * This are the citations. Kingfolker255 (talk) 09:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Please see my response at Citations:سمکالین. I would advise you not to add transliterations of Hindi lemmas as Urdu lemmas. نعم البدل (talk) 09:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Kingfolker255 (talk) 09:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Let me re linking the uses:
 * 1
 * https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=pv6xEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT30&lpg=PT30&dq=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86+urdu&source=bl&ots=KbeDF0GiZQ&sig=ACfU3U3aM5QvSN4dCZiYix8Cz0BQ_iuc-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijl_Hf4tSDAxX2zDgGHTznA604ChDoAXoECAcQAg#v=snippet&q=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86%20&f=false
 * 2:
 * https://www.hindsamachar.in/national-news/news/forced-population-displacement-is-against-human-development-38019
 * 3:
 * https://www.hindsamachar.in/top-news/news/india-s-technological-advancement-self-sufficiency-bandaru-dattatreya-30904
 * 4:
 * https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=RdVjAAAAMAAJ&q=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86&dq=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1iqiNqYeEAxVgQ2cHHfGYDL4Q6AF6BAgLEAM#%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86
 * 5:
 * https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=nKhjAAAAMAAJ&q=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86&dq=%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbsqbZk4mEAxUgamwGHSe0D-AQ6AF6BAgJEAM#%D8%B3%D9%85%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86 Kingfolker255 (talk) 04:48, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * These are the same ones you gave earlier on? I explained which were, and which weren't suitable. نعم البدل (talk) 07:44, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Saraiki/Punjabi Transliteration
Hi,

The Shahmukhi transliteration module isn't working properly, it's still in beta but

And I don't know if it's part of this module but it doesn't remove the "ghunna diacritic ٘ " when opening a link Notevenkidding (talk) 16:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * – Would it be okay for your Module:ur-translit to be copied over to Module:pa-Arab-translit and changed as per WT:PA TR? نعم البدل (talk) 17:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @نعم البدل ofc! go ahead! - سَمِیر | Sameer  (مشارکت‌ها · بحث) 18:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

شمع
Hi,

I am not sure is transliterated correctly, even if there is. Could you please check the entry? Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The transliteration was based on the Hindi lemma. I've based it on the Urdu transliteration now. (I'll fix the page later)! نعم البدل (talk) 04:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

bad characters
Hi. Please be careful adding roots; e.g. this diff added a blacklisted version of the Arabic letter mīm, and the resulting root category can't be created. I'm not sure how this is happening but I fixed about 12-15 such instances a few days ago. Benwing2 (talk) 06:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)


 * That is weird, I use the standard Urdu keyboard! Is there a difference between the two meem's (in the diffs)? نعم البدل (talk) 07:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The actual diff where I correct your error is here: I cut and pasted the two strings into Python and the mīm's are the same but your text had a U+2069 character (which is "POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE") at the end, directly after the mīm and before the close brace. I don't know how this gets inserted but evidently it does. User:Erutuon you recently made some change concerning RTL embedding vs. isolation so maybe you have some idea what this character is and why it's getting inserted? Benwing2 (talk) 07:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I changed the CSS for right-to-left scripts, such as Arabic, from  to , because apparently the "isolate" behavior is newer and recommended by Unicode over the "embed" behavior according to this section of the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm documentation. I thought that might be causing the characters U+2067 (RIGHT‑TO‑LEFT ISOLATE) and U+2069 (POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE) to be inserted before and after the text when you copy and paste it, but it seems not to be the case. Actually User:Theknightwho made Module:script utilities (which is used by link templates) insert those characters in this edit before I made the CSS change. The characters will sometimes show up when you manually select some Arabic-tagged text from a link, copy it, and then paste it into the edit box. If the syntax highlighter (mw:Extension:CodeMirror) is enabled in the edit box, it shows them as red circles and makes them deletable. Anyway, I think Module:script utilities doesn't need to insert these characters anymore, because the CSS has the same effect as them. — Eru·tuon 00:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Erutuon Thanks! User:Theknightwho, what do you think? Can we try getting rid of the code that inserts those characters? They're definitely showing up in places they shouldn't be, presumably as a result of this. Benwing2 (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Benwing2 @Erutuon Yes - that sounds good. Theknightwho (talk) 02:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That also explains why declensions are being messed up. I was confused, because over the past couple of months the declensions were just tripping. I noticed the declensions at (Template:pnb-noun-f-c) not being returned with their transliterations, and Unicode identifier shows that POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE is being inserted for whatever reason. نعم البدل (talk) 03:00, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * And obv no changes were made to the templates. It was driving me a little crazy. نعم البدل (talk) 03:03, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @نعم البدل Yeah makes sense. I removed the extra formatting char from ; hopefully this won't be an issue going forward. Benwing2 (talk) 03:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you! نعم البدل (talk) 03:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably yes, as CSS/HTML code for bidirectional control does not insert them and no relevant web-browser either when copying?
 * Blacklisted characters though can also come from people copying from Digital Dictionaries of South Asia, where the Unicode is often random instead of according to current internet usage. But indeed I long know it to come mostly from linking templates, particularly the ones in translation tables.
 * As you’ll are on optimizing BiDi behaviour and now consider to remove a part of the pertinent code, for entropy I remark that there were parts of the dictionary that were displayed incorrectly or dubiously until recently, but I observe are now fixed perhaps by Theknightwho’s edit this month: reference templates where all fields are RTL script, and and related templates (for which reason we pragmatically disabled transcription in it half a decade ago, but now transcription is back and correctly ordered e.g. on ).
 * Very rarely only (a low three-digit number of quotes at most in the last 8 years, of my 60,000 edits) I have inserted BiDi characters manually (their situated on the 4th level on the default Arabic xkeyboard-config layout), between the author and title field of such references, as at the end of the author field of still present and  formerly, Wingerbot removed it in 2020 and now I don’t see a difference any longer. Usually I circumvented the problem by adding some transcription or translation in Latin letters (which is not possible if I don’t know from somewhere how somebody’s name vocalizes …). Fay Freak (talk) 02:48, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Fay Freak Yeah I have done periodic runs to remove L2R (U+200E) and R2L (U+200F) marks. The code that does this runs the BIDI algorithm on the Wikitext to see if the result is any different without the directional chars and only removes them if not. Recently however, I made the code more aggressive so it also removes such marks (a) when more than one occurs in a row (leaving only one), (b) whenever they occur at the end of a template argument or link, based on the observation that it doesn't (or didn't?) make any difference in the actual output whether such marks are present. After the last run I also did a manual postprocessing step checking the ones that were still present and removing them when it didn't make a difference in the output or actually improved things (e.g. sometimes there was such a mark between two words in an Arabic translation, which caused the words to show in the wrong order). I think the reason such marks kept occurring in the Wikitext was people cutting and pasting Wiktionary output; now that we've removed the code that inserts the directional chars, this might not be an issue in the future. Benwing2 (talk) 02:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, this sounds even more meticulous than I have expected.
 * Your removal of the BiDi character addition in Module:script utilities while I was writing does not cause issues at least in the mentioned two test cases, a good sign, implying that the hypothesis that the same visual result can be reached with CSS alone is correct everywhere. Fay Freak (talk) 03:11, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

provinces of Pakistan, etc. in Module:labels/data/regional
I am trying to clean out the junk from Module:labels/data/regional and move it to language-specific modules. However, a year and some ago you added a whole bunch of Pakistan-related stuff (e.g. 'Khyber Pakhtunwa', 'Islamabad', 'Gilgit-Baltistan', etc.), which remains there because it's not associated with any languages or categories. What language(s) did you intend these to be used with? In general we don't want random toponyms there, but only ones that are associated with actual dialects of some language. Benwing2 (talk) 05:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi! I believe I was just generally trying to add Pakistani provinces to the regional labels. I had an issue a while back where the Kashmir and Punjab label would only be subordinate to India but not Pakistan, but I wasn't able to solve it. نعم البدل (talk) 02:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I see. In that case since these labels aren't used anywhere, I may just remove them. The alternative is to add them to some language-specific data module but as there is more than one language spoken in Pakistan I'm not sure which module(s) that would be. BTW I'm sure I can help you with the issue with Kashmir and Punjab issue if you can give me some examples of what you were trying to do. Benwing2 (talk) 02:53, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Feel free to remove them. I should have realised they were empty labels. I specify the regional labels for each language now (see User:%D9%86%D8%B9%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%84/bookmarks). As for the Kashmir and Punjab issue, I'm not really sure how it should be dealt with, but essentially they should cover both Pakistan and India (where at the minute they're both subordinate to India). This is what I proposed at User_talk:Chuck_Entz/2023 and even tried implementing it but I don't think I done it correctly so, again, feel free to sort it out whichever way you feel is best. The reason why I added the Pakistan province labels, was because I was trying to imitate the way Indian states/labels are handled on this site, but I clearly I couldn't figure it out haha! نعم البدل (talk) 03:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. Yeah IMO all the names of individual states, provinces and such should specify the associated country in them. We do that with some countries (e.g. it's Category:Arizona, USA not Category:Arizona) but not with others. If we did this here there wouldn't be the current issue with Category:Punjab referring to the Indian state rather than the Pakistani province. I'm going to propose renaming these in the Beer Parlour. Benwing2 (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

So many Urdu entries that are actually Sanskrit words.
What can we do about them? It's kind of out of control. Are there any Urdu admins we can ping? 178.120.10.176 16:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Middle Hindi
Ok so the range for Old Hindi is 10th–13th centuries. But I can't find anything on wiki regarding "Middle Hindi". The template currently links to nothing. Could you self-revert? 178.120.10.176 20:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I can't seem to find this Middle Hindi thing, even in scholar.google.com. Could you share your sources? 178.120.10.176 21:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * – It's not necessary for everything to be on Wikipedia. Middle Hindi is an etymology-based language enabled on Wiktionary and is used for pin-pointing the stages of which Urdu lemmas have been attested (in this case during the 13-17th century). It's not a fully-fledged language. Any lemmas for Middle Hindi are categorised under Old Hindi, like . نعم البدل (talk) 01:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean in that case it shouldn't link to Wikipedia. 178.120.10.176 01:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It just means the article for Middle Hindi doesn't exist on Wikipedia, but that does not mean the Middle Hindi stage doesn't necessarily exist. Middle Hindi is intermediate between Old Hindi and Modern Urdu. نعم البدل (talk) 01:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Even if Middle Hindi exists, why should it link to an article that doesn't exist. थोड़ा अजीब है ना? 178.120.10.176 02:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Although there may be some flexibility regarding the exact time frame, there are sufficient usages on Google Books and Google Scholar to demonstrate that there exists an entity called “Middle Hindi” outside of Wiktionary (using the quotation marks in the search box). Thus, the term is certainly not unique to Wiktionary. If Wikipedia does not have an article for it, that is not a concern for Wiktionary. What could possibly be a concern for Wiktionary is whether links to Wikipedia should be disabled if there is no corresponding article. If you are interested in starting such a discussion, you could possibly do so at at a different location such as WT:GP and see if anyone responds. See
 * User:This, that and the other/broken WP links test

for more such instances. Kutchkutch (talk) 16:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciations in Urdu
I see you have been pronouncing words in Urdu and that is amazing. There is one problem with some of the recordings though. and for example. āiC is not a legal sequence in Urdu outside -āiś from Persian words and later loans from English, āiC always becomes āyaC even in the most cultivated of pronunciations. Also please respect the allophones of vowels u and a around h. In the standard prestigious pronunciations, which you probably also use in everyday life, it is môhôbbat, not muhabbat or mahabbat. I think these should be corrected. You do not have to use artificially make it sound exactly like the transcription, because in practice phonetic phenomena and processes produce allophonic realisations. RonnieSingh (talk) 13:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi, Thanks for your message. I definitely do agree that I haven't done my recordings as professionally as they should have been and it's something that I hate myself for. There are also some audioclips which I've been removing from Wiktionary because they're just so subpar. The main reason for this was:
 * 1. I was slightly unwell at that time (and you might hear the hesitancy in my voice as well), and honestly I was recording clips to pass time.
 * 2. As you may know I'm a Punjabi-Urdu speaker, so my Urdu is influenced by Punjabi, and I wasn't sure whether to conceal my Punjabi accent or not and whether I should go for the 'formal' Urdu pronunciation.
 * 3. Admittedly, the Punjabi vs Urdu issues had me somewhat confused regarding the short vowels in some words.
 * If I had a chance, I would honestly remove all of my audio clips and record them all again, but I recorded somewhere around 250 clips, many of which are being used on Wiktionary already, and I don't think it would be possible for me to redo the recordings, especially with my schedule.
 * Also please respect the allophones of vowels u and a around h – So for instance when it comes to محبت, would you prefer I pronounced it as [mʊ.ɦəb.bət̪] or [mo.ɦəb.bət̪]? I pronounced it as [mo.ɦəb.bət̪], perhaps it's not coming off as clear as it should be?
 * You do not have to use artificially make it sound exactly like the transcription, because in practice phonetic phenomena and processes produce allophonic realisations – Thank you, I will bear this in mind for any future recordings I do, and I'll try to correct some of my previous recordings. نعم البدل (talk) 16:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * /mʊɦəbːət/ [mɔɦɔb.bət], like bahut bôhôt RonnieSingh (talk) 17:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)