User talk:145.255.238.136

Ruottši
Hey, do you not consider the Karjalan Kielen Sanakirja a valid resource for Karelian proper? I am no expert on Karelian and Livvi, I was just posting my findings from that dictionary, and they clearly use "ruottši" with no mention of it being Livvi. Do you also happen to have any other resources besides Livvi Wikipedia that indicate it meaning "Sweden"?

Kind regards, Strombones (talk) 13:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Unfortunately I cannot check the link to KKS you provided.

Although, I have to confess that the meaning "Finland" for Ruottši/Ruočči I only saw in Karelian-Livvi sources (and this use is quite steady, even in contemporary texts). While in Karelian proper it means just Sweden - at least in the text I read. For example in this article in Karelian proper, "Ruočči" means Sweden clearly: http://omamua.ru/issues/2017/noumeru_4/karjalaruoi_arvuamatoin_vaihtoloma/ Perhaps, it's a new tendency, i.e. just an attempt to use "better" language. I also read that in the past (that is centuries ago), just everyone beyond Swedish-Russian border was called "Swede/ruočči", as they all belonged to Sweden (were citizens of Sweden). Back than such a reference was totally correct, and then it meant "Swede". Now Finland is an independent state, and calling a Finn ruočči in modern Karelian is considered as strictly pejorative.

Here an Uhtua inhabitant tells "руоччи", also meaning Sweden, although footnote 78 explains that sometimes it means also Finn - when one wants to offend that Finn, i.e. the word is used in pejorative sense. http://www.voinitsa.ru/pages/07/art261.aspx So normally ruočči means a Swede. But if you wish to offend a Finn you call him "ruočči" (in Karelian proper). Compare to calling a Karjalainen "ryssä" (Russian).

However in Livvi "ruottši" seems to mean just a Finn (i.e. neutral sense) even now.

So you might be right that my judgment is subjective, based on only limited sources. The KKS in this sense is surely an authoritative source (sad that I cannot read the article in it).


 * Thank you for your insights.Strombones (talk) 17:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

sanakirja
Please clarify Karelian / Livvi on this page. DTLHS (talk) 00:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)