User talk:Andresalvarez

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Format of entries
Do not make entries with parentheses, such as "(de maíz)". You have to choose rosita or rosita de maíz. You can even have both, but you cannot put "rositas (de maíz)". —Stephen 16:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

T-shirt
Please take note of my reversion of your edits to thsi article. You may want to familiarise yourself with WT:ELE and other policies and guidelines here. Enjoy! --Williamsayers79 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with your additions to the translation table under Spanish, but you had accidently wrecked the trans table itself prior to my revert - see here - this is where I repaired your previous error.--Williamsayers79 21:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Spanish regionalisms
Thanks very much for your excellent work on regional Spanish terms. This is a subject that interests me.

There are some things to keep in mind though. Stephen has already left you a message about not including parentheses inside wikilinks. Another is not to wikilink plural forms even when a term is usually used in the plural. An exception is when a term is only used in the plural such as trousers or scissors in English. It's quite possible to say "una rosita de maíz" or "una palomita". The place to not the terms are usually used in the plural is on the articles rosita and palomita themselves. Otherwise you'll end up linkig to stub articles that just say "plural of palomita". I've checked and real printed Spanish dictionaries include these senses in the singular entry. &mdash; Hippietrail 16:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It's important to learn about regional variations, not only in Spanish but also in English, French and other languages spoken in many a single country. Despite the fact that we the Spanish-speaking people are addicted to the Royal Academy Spanish Dictionary, the truth is that most of these terms are not included there or they are absolutely unknown even to most of the Spanish-speaking people. Besides, more than 80% of the spanish-speaking people lives in Latin America. Corcerning the spanish terms for popcorn, some of them are basically used in plural : palomitas, cotufas, etc. Theoretically you could use it in the singular form, but properly speaking, 'una palomita, una cotufa' is just a single piece and not the whole bag you get when you go -for instance- to the movies. Some of these terms have a full name like 'palomita de maíz', 'roseta de maíz', that can be shortened to 'palomita' and 'roseta', and still people will understand what they are. That's why I put the words 'de maíz' into parentheses : you may feel free to drop them. So far, I ignore what are the terms used for 'popcorn' in Nicaragua and Honduras. Last but not least, 'rosetas' (and not 'rositas') is the term used in El Salvador, as far as I have checked on the web. It's sometimes difficult to find out the regional terms in countries like those of Central America. Andresalvarez (15 march 2007)


 * Ah yes the problem is that the English term popcorn is uncountable. That is to say it is a mass noun. English mass nouns do not have a plural form (sometimes they do but the sense changes, popcorn does not). Spanish does not have mass nouns but only singular and plural. In English there can be only one form and you would need the circumlocution "piece of popcorn" to literally translate "palomita". In Spanish there can be both a singular and plural form though the plural is a better translation for the English mass noun and the Spanish plural will be much more common than the singular.
 * But which form is more common or which form more accurately translates the English term must not form the basis of the main entry for the Spanish term. As with print dictionaries the main entry must be under the single form, especially since several words have meanings besides popcorn and all meanings should be listed in the one place.
 * Now if you wish you can list the more accurate Spanish plural in the translation section but still have it link to the singular form where the Spanish definitions rightly belong. You can do it thus: palomitas which will render like this: palomitas. This may be the ideal solution. &mdash; Hippietrail 01:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your recommendation. Let me think it over. By the way, I have just learned from Nicaraguan and Honduran newspapers that there is not other term in those countries but "palomitas de maíz". Andresalvarez (16mar2007)


 * You're welcome. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your work on regional Spanish synonyms. Did I make an entry for the Honduran term for popcorn? If so I don't remember. Less than one year ago I spent one year travelling from Mexico City to Panama City through every country except Belize. As I went I collected interesting new words and where I could find one at a reasonable price I would buy a dictionary containing Spanish of the region. I bought one for Honduran Spanish though I was told there was a better one made by the local brance of the RAE. In Managua I found a very good Nicaraguan Spanish dictionary but it was outside my price range. I personally saw and used palomitas in Mexico and poporopro in Guatemala and I remember seeing rositas on a bag of popcorn in one country but I can't remember which any more. All of my notes were on papelitos which I didn't save after transferring their contents onto Wiktionary.
 * Again I'm in Mexico but this time not planning to travel further south but I'm still keeping an eye out for interesting words and always have a notebook handy!
 * Keep up the great work! &mdash; Hippietrail 17:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you're referring to the Salvadoran term for popcorn. There's one mention in the 'discussion' section, signed by you, by the way. You said you could confirm the use of 'rositas' in El Salvador. As far as I could check, I found an article in a Salvadoran newspaper I read on-line, in which the writer use the word 'rosetas' (I'll try to check again), also used in Puerto Rico. And as far as I know, 'rositas' is used at least in Cuba. I know 'palomitas' is standard in Mexico. And there are also many links on line attesting the use of the word 'pororopo' in Guatemala. It was me who said there is seemingly not another term in Honduras and Nicaragua for 'popcorn' but 'palomitas'. Check my updates on regional Spanish translations for 'kite', and for animals typical to Latin America as 'armadillo', 'opossum', 'capybara', 'paca', 'turkey' and 'kincajou'. Andresalvarez (19mar2007)

Salvadoran term por 'popcorn'
Check this link : http://www.laprensa.com.sv/portada/. It's a salvadoran newspaper called 'La Prensa Grafica' Go to top right and you'll find the box 'Buscar noticias' (search for news), write the word 'rosetas' and click on 'Ir' (go!), and there are at least three articles attesting the use of Salvadoran term for 'popcorn'. I didn't have the same success by writing 'rositas'. Andresalvarez (19mar2007)

English vs Spanish country names
Just minor note to be careful to use English names of countries here on the English Wiktionary, even in articles on Spanish words. Specifically I've spotted you using Brasil instead of Brazil, México instead of Mexico, Panamá instead of Panama and Perú instead of Peru. I've fixed a couple but there are some others. Thanks. &mdash; Hippietrail 18:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it was uncounciously that I wrote it that way. I'll keep it in mind. Andresalvarez (19mar2007)

papaya
When adding translations, be sure to connect them to one of the definitions. For example, you entered the names of the papaya fruit, not for the papaya tree (which is papayo in standard Spanish). --EncycloPetey 15:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll take it into account. I'm actually referring to the papaya fruit Andresalvarez 15:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit comments
Hi. Great work as always on the Spanish regional terms. But I have a couple of issues.

I've been tidying up a few problems with your edits which as I say are mostly great. I always include comments that you can read to see the reasons for my changes.


 * 1) (minor) Use  rather than (this) or (this). It's better for consistency and each user can make it look like either of the other two if they wish. The other two cannot be changed.
 * 2) Please, if you disagree with any of my changes, don't just revert them. Put a message on my user talk page, or a message on the article talk page, or at least an edit comment. Blank edit comments are considered bad form except when you're doing trivial changes nobody will care about. Reverting somebody else's change is never trivial.
 * 3) Order all terms alphabetically unless you are very sure you are putting universally used terms first. For instance you wouldn't put an American spelling before a British spelling or vice versa just because it's your personal variety. Just as for Spanish you wouldn't put a Spain-only term first because Spanish was born ther or a Mexico-only term first because Mexico has the most Spanish speakers. If one word really works just about everywhere sure put it first. But put everything else alphabetically. The Dominican Republic is just as valid as Argentina etc.
 * 4) Do not group terms by region. Often I see you doing "abc or xyz (Mexico)" etc. We can't do this. The reasons are several. Firstly for a dictionary what we care about most is the words. We don't care about geography or politics. To find words a user should expect to be able to scan through the list and expect them to be in order. Secondly, say Peru uses two terms - one is the same as used in Bolivia and the other is only used in Peru. In this case one has to be tagged for one country and the other has to be tagged for two. This means you cannot use your "or" method. Now since this happens often it means there are inevitably two systems: one for groups of words used in several places, and another for groups of words used just in one place. Now two systems is a bad thing for users. The only way to keep consistency and not complexify things for users is to use just one system. As the system which puts terms in alphabetical order and tags each term always works, it is the system to go for.
 * 5) (minor) When a term is used in several places and you list them all - please list them in alphabetical order. Putting Spain or Mexico or any other place first can be seen as unfair POV.
 * 6) Spanish words simply cannot be pronounced in English. I've travelled through 8 Spanish-speaking countries and rarely have I heard anything pronounced as in Spanish. Simply because English has many sounds that Spanish doesn't have. Exactly how Spanish words are never pronounced as in Spanish by British or American speakers. For instance the word "jazz" is pronounced in my experience as though it were spelled "chas" or "yas" is Spanish but never like "jazz" in English since Spanish has no "dʒ" sound, no "æ" sound, and no "z" sound.
 * 7) All notes on pronunciation, etymology, etc belong on the entry for the term - never in the translation section. If there are not yet entries for the Spanish terms it's fine to include notes in comments that editors will see but not users - this is a long-standing practice.

Now please understand that I have the highest respect for your work and take this as constructive criticism - in no way is it meant as any kind of attack. I will however be undoing some of your reverts which look to me like they undid my work (paid for at 12 pesos per hour) without adding anything and without explanation. Please comment on anything you disagree with or consult the Beer parlour. &mdash; Hippietrail 20:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course, Spanish-speaking people cannot usually pronounce English words as an American, Englishman, Canadian or Australian would do, unless they live in English-speaking countries (and viceversa). What I meant is an APPROXIMATE pronunciation : for instance, if in some spanish-country they use the word "bumper" instead of "parachoques", but pronounce it "bómper", it sounds a little bit closer to English real pronunciation. Of course, I know what you mean, it will never be a fully English pronunciation, first, because Spanish "R" doesn't sound like English "R", provided that you will pronounce "bumper" the Standard American, Canadian, Irish, Northern Irish or Scottish way ; otherwise, if you pronounce it the Standard British or Australian way, it will sound like "bompa" to Spanish-speaking people's ears. Neither "u" in bumper cannot be equalled to Spanish "o" since it is pronounced closer to throat, whereas spanish "o" is closer to lips. Not to mention english "e" in bumper, which is pronounced as a sound called "schwa" and represented with an inverted (upside down) "e".

Then you got the opposite case, some spanish pronunciations have absolutely nothing to do with English pronunciation, for instance in Spain a sweater is called jersey : although it's clearly an English word, it's actually pronounced "her-say", with a Spanish "r", of course, not "Jersey" as in New Jersey State.

I agree with ordering alphabetically all terms, but there are some exceptions : when a term is rather more universal (I don't agree with not listing first "palomitas de maíz" for English "popcorn", since it's widely known even for people who use and prefer their local term). The other case is when you have a formal term, for instance, "speed bump" can be translated as "resalto" or "reductor de velocidad". I think they should be listed first, and then the local terms, which can be listed in alphabethic order.

I'm not sure if I understood what you meant by not caring about geography (anyway, neither I care about politics, and neither I care, if the people of this or that country don't strike me as sympathetic, when I'm writing about Spanish regional terms) : it is not my intention to establish a kind of radical regionalism in Spanish translations. Fortunately, we the Spanish speaking people have not serious trouble when it comes to understanding each other (it's harder to other people, say, French and Quebecois, or German and Swiss German ). However, modern English-Spanish dictionaries like Oxford, Webster or Chicago University try hard to get closer to actual (real) spanish speech, taking into account all the national variations. Thus, "hitchhike" will not be simply translated as "hacer autostop" as it is said in Spain, but also as "hacer dedo", "pedir aventón". Yet, there are many translations that dictionaries don't include, so to me it's a kind of "scoop" (speaking in journalistic terms), to learn, say, that a "common bean" can be translated as "habilla" in Paraguay, or a "slingshot" or "catapult" can be translated as "chilinchate" in Honduras. No english-spanish dictionary has ever attested such translations (neither the Spanish Royal Academy Dictionary may have done it). I don't have trouble concerning changes that have to do with method : using italbrac, not using "or" for two terms used in a single country.

Last but not least, it was not my intention that you take offense because of my reverting some of your changes. My apologies... I've already explained above the reasons why I did so (concerning your ordering alphabetically all terms). Andresalvarez 14:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

hitchhike
Wow. Thank you. Wow. --Connel MacKenzie 20:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Hitchhike
"Thank you" for...what? My spanish translations for hitchhike? If so, you're welcome! Enjoy them! And please.. if you're interested in any spanish translation, just let me know. Andresalvarez 12:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, they are great - it is very interesting to see that much variety in one simple translation. I have no specific requests, only the list at User:Connel MacKenzie/todo6.  :-)  Enjoy!  --Connel MacKenzie 16:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

paca, tepezcuintle, tepezcuinte
I've reverted your edit which conflated tepezcuintle and tepezcuinte. Both in my experience travelling in Mexico and Central America and from checking my RAE dictionary, these two variants of the same word do not occur equally in the same regions. I would compare the situation with cacahuate (Mexico) vs. cacahuete (Spain). &mdash; Hippietrail 20:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, no problem. I'll trust your experience in Central America. I've been working hard to abide by the methodology, by putting words in alphabetic order. There's still some work to do. Andresalvarez 02:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)