User talk:AryamanA/sandbox

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So, I've done a little work. Can you check the above tables? I'm not sure how plural oblique works, so I haven't added it yet. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 20:03, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow, that looks amazing! Other than transliteration issues, विंचू is declined like that with an oblique marker and alternatively without any oblique marker. Kutchkutch (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The module MOD:mr-decl I wrote is really clunky lol. BTW, I can find no results for the ergative but plenty for . —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and I appreciate all the work you've done on Module:mr-decl! Since Module:mr-decl is the replacement for T:mr-decl-noun, that could mean I won't be able contribute as much to the implementation side unless T:mr-decl-noun is still useful. Since it's called Module:mr-decl without '-noun' does that mean it would ideally handle adjective and pronoun declension too?
 * Module:mr-decl would ideally have the genitive case, but it's fine if it's not handled yet. At Template:mr-decl-noun, I was thinking of removing the locative case for simplicity since it's just a postposition, but that can be done easily at any time.
 * An old source from Google Books says the default way to decline u-final masculine words is without an oblique, and the oblique is an alternative for some words such as . If the oblique is used for, I see a many search results for विंचवाला, विंचवांना, विंचवाने, विंचांनी, etc without the virama/halant before व.
 * It looks like you used Dhongde & Wali to make Module:mr-decl, and Dhongde & Wali doesn't say much on plural cases other than Direct Plural. Also, it looks the module can be manually told if a consonant-final feminine nouns is in the exception class with  . Kutchkutch (talk) 01:42, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks for the help! I think I will make a function for alternate obliques. Also, I totally forgot about the genitive, I'll implement that as well. And yes, you're right about "f-e". —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 10:37, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Here's a list of rules if this project is to ever be completed. Couldn't think of a better place to put. Kutchkutch (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow, this makes many things clear to me! I'll probably be unable to work much on it next week because of real life, but I'll do a bit tomorrow for sure. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 01:41, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your willingness to continue! Figuring out how each paradigm works is confusing since direct singular, direct plural, oblique singular and oblique plural could all be different. Kutchkutch (talk) 10:51, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a solution to deal with this confusion is to create 2x2 testcase tables for each regular paradigm so that I can show how they would look like Kutchkutch (talk) 21:32, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This is amazing! The tables really help. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 12:19, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't thank you enough for the work you've done thus far on everything. It's the least I can do so that the focus is more on to how to Luacise this rather than what to Luacise. I noticed that you've even 'adopted' this project to the point that you put on your userpage. Since User:Vinayak.patwardhan originally created Template:mr-decl-noun when I wasn't around, this seemed like a natural starting point.
 * I combined the direct plural and & oblique charts in Dhongde & Wali into a single chart in the 'Regular Paradigms' section for clarity. Of course there may be ways to improve this guide, but it appears to be comprehensive for the most part. I'm still wondering if pronoun declension should be handled automatically or entered manually. Kutchkutch (talk)
 * I've revamped Module:User:Aryamanarora/mr-decl so it's more flexible (now it uses regex to match stems). I've implemented the first rule, you can see at User:Aryamanarora/sandbox that and  decline correctly now! —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 21:36, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I was looking at right now! It looks great. Kutchkutch (talk) 21:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * For long u, the schwa would ideally deleted:, but if that's not a priority right now then it's fine (along with the genitive). Kutchkutch (talk) 21:48, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed. MOD:mr-translit was treating "ळ" as a diacritic (like "ं"). —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 21:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Really? I didn't even notice. Kutchkutch (talk) 21:55, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm aware that you've indicated that you're 'getting ready for exams'. So I hope this isn't distracting you too much.
 * Now there appears to be an issue with पाल, रात्री, लाट. Kutchkutch (talk) 22:05, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I think I'm done with editing for today TBH. I'll look at it tomorrow. Don't worry about it :) —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:09, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok then, thanks for all the work today! I really appreciate it. Kutchkutch (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

IDK how much you know about Marathi declension (more than me, that's for sure), but you might be interested in this as well. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 21:47, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, this looks great. Kutchkutch's detailed rules are also very helpful. The desclension structure (and the associated schwa deletion) are very similar to Konkani, only the suffixes differ. As already pointed out, the feminine nouns aren't declining properly -- माधवपंडित (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed now. (But what was wrong with ?) —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 02:03, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * See the 'C-ending feminine exceptional paradigm (f-e)' section below. Oblique plural: लाटां-.Kutchkutch (talk) 02:06, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, now it's fixed :) —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 02:17, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I had no idea what was wrong. -- माधवपंडित (talk) 02:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The oblique plural is the hardest 'box' to ascertain, but a quick search shows this is the case for since even Google suggests 'Did you mean: लाटांवर' when लाटेंवर is searched. Kutchkutch (talk) 02:22, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * There appears to a delay between changes at a module and transmitting those changes to where that module is being used so doing a page preview of a page shows the latest version (The mobile version takes hours).
 * The त in भक्त appears to be missing.
 * Also, I realised that oblique plural of शाळा is शाळां- instead of शाळें-. That was an error on my end. Dhongde & Wali don't say much about the oblique plural other than the ं. I wish I would have caught that much earlier. Kutchkutch (talk) 03:00, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I originally thought C cluster-ending might be unnecessary, but this shows it is necessary.
 * has an enormous list of words tagged with an example word to show how it's declined, which would be useful for the ambiguous cases if I can figure out the correspondences between their example words and Dhongde & Wali's example words. भक्त is an example word used for tagging in that that list to show that a C cluster-ending masculine word is declined exactly like भक्त. There's other resources at, but I haven't figured out a use for them yet. Kutchkutch (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I was actually just now on that site, using their wonderful IndoWordNet tool to fill up the descendants for 🇨🇬. That list could actually be used in our code if C clusters are too irrgular, much like how zh-new can automatically generate Mandarin and Cantonese pronunciations (which have no obvious rules) using a database. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 22:35, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * (Off topic, but It appears your username has changed, which changed the title of this page…)
 * Thanks for suggesting the idea if it becomes necessary!
 * The tags in that list includes, which perhaps suggests my guide may not be as complete as I originally thought, but I think the only difference is the lack of the halant/virama in the oblique marker ्या.
 * Another puzzling tag is, which suggests there could be more exceptions to the final closed syllable rule in which case your suggestion might come in handy. However, in that list is the tag for  so perhaps the list didn't account for the final closed syllable rule.
 * The module even in it's current state is a spectacular wonder. I know it takes a lot of patience to code, and you've clearly shown that. As I realise how the additional paradigms work, I can update the guide. Kutchkutch (talk) 23:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity I Googled and only got 3 hits and "Did you mean: ". So the stem does change, but I wonder if it is irregular because it's a Persian-derived word.
 * But then I looked up, and got very few hits. I tried and got many thousands of hits. That makes me think the stem is just weakened, not entirely lost, and maybe  dropping the vowel entirely is a colloquial or a recent variant (I only got hits after 2015 for it).
 * I'll probably implement alternative forms eventually since it seems Marathi is undergoing some standardization right now.
 * (I changed my username only so that it's not my full name, and User:Aryaman was taken) —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 00:34, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I really enjoy programming actually, and this is a great way to apply what I've learned. I don't mind it at all. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 00:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you're right about . And you're also right about, 'i' is never deleted since it's a Perso-Arabic borrowing. Kutchkutch (talk) 02:42, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Earlier, I misunderstood the tag for . Compounds containing such as वाडवडील have the <> tag and  itself has the <> tag. The more I look at that list, the large amount of exceptions perhaps favours integrating features of the tagging system. What I'll do now is try to combine the advantages of both the Dhongde & Wali and the tagging system.
 * Calling it a tagging system probably doesn't affect the testcases already implemented because it's just another way of looking at the same system with more descriptive names for each paradigm. For example, <> is a tag in the tagging system and has the <> tag so since the <> tag is already implemented perhaps nothing needs to done about it. For an ambiguous case such as consonant-ending feminine nouns, 'f-e' is currently the tag used to tell the module to use the exceptional paradigm. Some of the identical paradigms in Dhongde & Wali are merged into a single tag. For example,  and  in Dhongde & Wali are effectively the same paradigm so the tagging system merged them into the <> tag.
 * The User_talk:AryamanA/sandbox section is not done yet, but it's a preview of how such a system would look like . Kutchkutch (talk) 04:04, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I will start implementing this tomorrow morning (if you're in India, that'll be in your evening). —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 02:43, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi! Thanks for letting me know! Kutchkutch (talk) 02:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As already mentioned, the Dhongde & Wali system appears to work well for the unambiguous and common paradigms. The 'CFILT_Tags' system is perhaps a 'Version 2' of the Dhongde & Wali system for the ambiguous and less common paradigms for exception handling. It's interesting to think about how a module could handle those. The tags in the last section are ones that I'm still thinking about. If there's a use for them, I'll add information about them. If they're not useful they can be ignored because there are a few duplicate tags in the CFIL list. Kutchkutch (talk)
 * Thanks for your work on the Eyelash र today! The schwa is currently still in the transliteration of the oblique for चेहरा and नोकरी. The Eyelash र is an orthographic way of indicating that the र has moved to the onset of the following syllable with another consonant following it before the next vowel. Kutchkutch (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The tagging system is now looking a bit daunting. I like the comparisons with Chinese. Kutchkutch (talk) 01:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Final Closed Syllable: If masculine or neuter stem ends with stem-C₁VC₂ with V = /ə/, /iː/, /uː/, then V → ∅ / stem-C₁ __ C₂

 * m-aC: →
 * m-īC: →
 * m-ūC: →
 * n-īC: →, plural /
 * n-ūC: →, plural /
 * Exceptions: Words that have no sounds preceding C₁VC₂ such as, ,
 * No spelling change, Only transliteration changes: m-aC ,

If stem ends with stem-V₁V₂C with V₂ = /uː/, then uː → ʋ / stem-V₁__C

 * Exceptions: English borrowings such as 'town' and 'gown'.
 * Exceptions: English borrowings such as 'town' and 'gown'.
 * Exceptions: English borrowings such as 'town' and 'gown'.

Palatalisation: If stem ends with /s/ and followed by ्या or ी, then s → ɕ

 * m-a s: + ्या →
 * m-a s: + ्या →
 * s:  + ी →


 * Note: s → ɕ could occur in more cases such as दिवस + postpostion ई = दिवशी

Degemination: If stem ends with stem-C₁C₁VC₂, then C₁V → ∅∅ / stem-C₁__C₂

 * f-C: →
 * f-C: / →

Eyelash र: stem-र-ा / ी + ्या = stem-ऱ्या

 * + ्या =
 * + ्या =

C-ending feminine exceptional paradigm (f-e)
DSAL dictionaries usually indicate which paradigm a C-ending feminine noun follows

u-ending Exceptional Paradigms
Note: Some nouns can be declined using the non-exceptional or the exceptional paradigm. The word is  rare, but despite Dhongde & Wali's choice of word the paradigm it represents is valid.

Possible Exceptional Stems
The individual words may not matter unless they're common.
 * + ्या →

Common Nouns

 * and


 * and
 * and

Given Names
Singular Oblique is usually ∅.

Palatalisation: If stem ends with /t͡s/ or /d͡zʱ/ and followed by ्या or ी, then t͡s → t͡ɕ, d͡zʱ → d͡ʑʱ

 * t͡s: + ्या →
 * d͡zʱ: + ्या →


 * Note: No spelling changes, Only transliteration changes