User talk:Dine2016/Archive 1

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Thank you! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 21:26, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

as equivalent to "the action of the verb is incomplete", then the causative suffix -- cognate with  and precursor to  -- indicates the agent actively making the verb action happen. Meanwhile, the passive / spontaneous suffix -- ultimately deriving from Old Japanese auxiliary  and precursor to  -- indicates the spontaneous completion of the action, or the action being carried through to completion by some external force.
 * Though I haven't read Bjarke Frellesvig's works myself yet, I have had others explain to me that Frellesvig proposes a different diachronic analysis wherein the mizenkei itself is an innovation, and that it may have arisen from fusion with auxiliaries or suffixes that started with -a-. I believe Alexander Vovin also touches on a similar derivational mechanic for some verb forms.  I'm not sold on that idea, but I'm interested to know more, and I expect I'll get around to reading some of Frellesvig's writings at some point.
 * HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:41, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

案内状
Hi Dine2016. It seems you forgot to create the entry 案內狀. Could you please create it when you get a chance? Thanks. Wyang (talk) 03:43, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * sorry, I probably intended to create the Hanja term for 안내장. Not sure if 案內狀 exists in any Chinese language. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:06, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No worries. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 08:09, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Han ref
This data comes from here, BTW. Also, it might be easier to copy from the Thai Wiktionary, which already has pages for all(?) CJK characters and uses the same template :p —suzukaze (t・c) 03:59, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information. Would be great if a bot could fill the red links in the radical index, though. BTW, Unihan's coverage of dictionary indices is sometimes incomplete -- such as for 康熙字典·補遺 and rare kanjis in 大漢和辞典, which I add the page numbers when convenient. --Dine2016 (talk) 15:19, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you have any idea where the IDSs from the Thai Wiktionary come from? Their IDSs are sometimes different from the CHISE project ones, for example 𠂹 (Thai Wikt: ; CHISE:  ) --Dine2016 (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I thought they were from CHISE too. ? —suzukaze (t・c) 19:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * from Andrew West who does also add many Han characters to Unicode. And I put them with my bot once long ago. (I should run another round to update.)--Octahedron80 (talk) 04:04, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, I had forgotten about his IDS file. I wonder how big the differences are between the CHISE and BabelStone files. —suzukaze (t・c) 04:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

If you are interested, I also have this: They already filed my idea. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:29, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Nice. 👍 —suzukaze (t・c) 04:40, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Dai Kanwa number
I'm not too sure about the numbers you put in for Dai Kanwa. Are you sure that you are using the same edition as the Unihan database (Tokyo: Taishuukan Shoten, 1986)? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm using the 修訂版 published in 1984–1986 (and I didn't refer to the Kanji Database Project). --Dine2016 (talk) 01:48, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks! Keep up the work! — justin(r)leung { (t...) 01:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Translingual definition
Please remove translingual definitions once you have improved the Chinese one.--Zcreator alt (talk) 14:32, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Volitional ending よう at よう
Your edit prompted me to have a go at things. :) I expanded what was there.  I'm a bit concerned that it's too information-dense, but then again there's a lot to pack in...  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:03, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, isn't 上一段活用 -i-u → yū instead of yō? --Dine2016 (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You'd think so, from a surface analysis. Per the KDJ entry for this よう volitional / suppositional auxiliary:

...たとえば「見む」「上げむ」は、室町時代末までに「みう」「あげう」から「みょう」「あぎょう」のような融合したオ列拗長音の形に変化していた...
 * I also find this puzzling, as kanji readings clearly demonstrated a pattern of -ip (MZH) → -ipu (OJP) → -ifu・-iu (MJ) → -yū (JA), such as at . However, the existence of that consonant between the two original vowel sounds may well have changed how the vowels developed, perhaps accounting for why one combination of i + u resulted in  and the other in .  Alternatively, it might have been that speakers preferred  for some reason, and the -e + -u → -yō pattern overrode what would otherwise have been -i + -u → yū.
 * I'm not aware of any easily-accessed corpus of late-Muromachi works that could be used to double check... Looking into it just now, I see that the University of Virginia Library's Japanese Text Initiative lists several works that might fit this time frame, so that's one place to start.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Labeling for copula-related terms
Re:, I think I'd prefer rather than  -- the latter inexorably calls to mind , more strongly than , which is distracting and irrelevant. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Template:ja-see
Good stuff, thank you!

Incidentally, I've been giving it a try, and found a potential hiccup at 🇨🇬. Since the 硴 page and the referred 牡蠣 page are both kanji, I'd expect the template to say "alternative spelling", but it says "kanji spelling" instead. From the template's own code, it looks like it's supposed to say "alternative"... Could you take a look when you have time?

TIA, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Template:Japanese_basic_inflections
Thank you for adding this template, it's very useful! — Kiutsushou (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * (Sorry for the delay.) You're welcome! Actually, the template follows the traditional description of Japanese verb conjugation in which each verb has six basic forms (mizenkei, ren'yōkei, etc.) and additioanl forms are formed by adding auxiliary verbs. Western textbooks seem to use a different set of conjugating rules, for example first teaching the masu-form and then back-forming the masu-stem or what the Japanese call ren'yōkei. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:00, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

user page
—Suzukaze-c◇◇ 00:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) I think your English is great.
 * 2) I think your templates have been great.
 * 3) I suspect part of the problem for Japanese is that everything is "good enough"/"works", it would be a massive change, and we can't decide on details, which is why discussions don't last :/ (well, these are partly the reasons why I haven't participated a lot; maybe I am just projecting on other people...)

Module Errors With Module:ja-see
There are several entries in CAT:E due to an invisible module error in ja-see. These entries don't show any error messages, but the error category goes away if you preview with ja-see commented out.


 * The only time I've seen this kind of thing before was when a template fed the output of a module into a parser function, which ignored it. That's apparently not the case here, but I think that somewhere up the chain of module calls a module is passing the error text to the module that called it, but the calling module isn't doing anything with it. I'm not very good with Lua, so I can't tell where the error is or provide much help. Even if I was, I suspect this is going to be real tough to debug. Good luck! Chuck Entz (talk) 01:51, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Ah, thanks. I spotted two problem. The first was that Japanese headword templates such as needed to know the kana spelling of the entry it described. Thus “” worked fine on, but when copying it to , it should be manually supplied with the kana spelling like “”, otherwise it would complain. I was fully aware of this, but screwed up the code. I've fixed it now. The second problem was that my customarily-written wikicode parser mistakenly parsed   as  . I'll rewrite the template parser when I have time. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:24, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

@ Module:ja-kanjitab
Category:Japanese terms read with kun'yomi and other similar categories are empty now. (；´∀｀) —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 06:26, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

ご自愛もお忘れなく.
—Suzukaze-c◇◇ 01:48, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks… By the way, I would like to apologize for being rude in a talk-page comment posted shortly after the completion of the new . I'm sorry. --Dine2016 (talk) 07:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It's fine. I don't remember any such comment anyway.  —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 09:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Module Error at 熱心腸
As far as I can figure out, Module:nan-pron is having trouble with the second part of the Min Nan parameter for zh-pron, though I have no clue what's wrong with it. Please take a look. 谢谢! Chuck Entz (talk) 21:01, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose the issue is using a number instead of the POJ tone-marking system? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 21:05, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

??

Separately, thanks for fixing my typo in the sortkey. :)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * By "formatting instructions" I meant code like this:

&lt;div style="float:right;"&gt; wp Dialectical materialism &lt;/div&gt;
 * Such a practice violates the principle of, with two consequences: (1) The editor must manually tweak the layout when there are complex box combinations like "wp + wp + kanjitab", which wastes CSS functionalities and burdens maintenance. (2) This forces boxes to appear on the right. If someone wanted to make boxes appear on the left (as was done to ja-spellings), there is no way they can change their personal CSS to achieve the effect if "float:right" is hardcoded in Module:wikipedia, Module:ja-kanjitab, etc., let alone in entries!
 * I think our entry layout is fundamentally flawed compared with Wikidata or EDICT, not only because they maintain real entries (Excel-like records) while we maintain spellings (Word-like pages), but also because:
 * We put irrelevant information before the headword. For example, look up, and you must skip over the etymology (“Coined in Japan of Sinic elements …”) and pronunciation before you can confirm the word you're looking for ). I think this is because the entry layout is designed for English, where the spelling alone suffices to determine the word, and is unsuitable for Japanese, where requires "spelling + reading" as the headword for a large number of vocabulary.
 * By the way, Chinese has a similar problem, but cleverly accepts and displays comprehensible romanizations instead of scary IPA; compare Chinese  { : definitions;  : definitions} with Japanese  { :  definitions; :  definitions}. Also,  has gray backgrounds, so it's easy to navigate in the page when there are multiple readings.
 * Our entry layout is not very orthogonal. The problem is not only duplication of information, but also the context-sensitive grammar. For example, when there is a single there is no need of "formatting instructions" mentioned above, but when there are two or more 's they must be surrounded with a div style="float:right". This is not logical. Another example is . If you use yomi then any additional pronunciations or notes must begin with two asterisks, otherwise they must begin with one. If you use acc_ref then you must put   and   at the end of the entry, if you remove it you must also remove them. This burdens learning effort for newcomers and maintenance effort for editors.
 * We divide parts of the entry using "hard-coded" L2-6 headers, which forces the parts (etymology, pronunciation, definitions, etc.) to be laid out vertically and left-aligned, in the strict order they appear in the source. If the user wants to change the order the parts appear in, they must write sophisticated JS to reorder the page, which can be error-prone. By comparison, EDICT and Wikidata entries are both structured records, which can be displayed in several ways. (Compare for example the presentation of query results of WWWJDIC and Jisho.org.) Also, if you want to add a wp link to an entry like, you must manually choose between on the right side of the page, or  in the "See also" section, depending on which looks better on the final page. This has the same problem as "formatting instructions" mentioned above.
 * While problem 3 cannot be solved at the moment, problems 1 and 2 can. Please take a look at User:Dine2016/sandbox for a way to combine and . --Dine2016 (talk) 13:42, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Cheers, thanks for expanding on your comment. I'm short on time, so I must be brief.
 * The initial issue was that our CSS makes various layout possibilities difficult. The   is a cludge to get around that.  Many years ago, it was possible to stack the elements as:

===Etymology===


 * And that would render as:

===Etymology===                                    Kanjitab      WP box etym etym etym etym etym etym                      Kanjitab      Other WP box


 * But at some point, someone reworked the styling and layout for the WP boxes, and they wouldn't stack like above, instead showing up as:

===Etymology===                                                  WP box etym etym etym etym etym etym                      Kanjitab      Other WP box Kanjitab


 * There was other ugliness too, where the boxes were forcing the content lines further down, resulting in what looked like empty lines on the page. Hence the cludge.
 * If you're aware of any way to get the stacking in the above rendering without the div, I'm all ears. (FWIW, left-right options aside, the layout with the div works just fine for me on both PC and mobile.)
 * Re: entry structure in general, would your comments imply that you're advocating for putting pronunciation at level 3, and etym below that? Presumably then we'd have Pronuncation 1, Pronunciation 2, etc. for multi-reading entries.  I would support this structure for Japanese entries, although I'm leery of the amount of work involved -- perhaps ideal for a bot?
 * If instead you intend to put the definition lines first, I fail to understand how that would work very well -- senses are dependent upon (and thus subordinate to) the reading, which in turn is closely tied to the etym. Do you have a mock-up of your desired structure?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:11, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply.
 * Re: entry structure in general: No, I'm advocating neither. Reordering the sections (etym + pron + defs) would be a radical change and a great departure from the general entry layout, so it's unlikely to succeed. I think we can look for other ways to make the headword visually stand out. For example, we can make non-floating, so that it becomes part of normal running text. This way each etymology section begins with a table of the term's possible spellings, equivalent to the headword format "かえる かへる 【蛙・蝦】" in kokugo dictionaries. Or we can remodel  after, so that the romaji (= reading) visually stands out in a grey box. Please see  as an example of the former approach and User:Dine2016/sandbox as an example of the latter approach.
 * Re: wp boxes: I think the boxes should be all laid vertically by default:

===Etymology===                WP box etym etym etym etym etym etym  Other WP box Kanjitab Kanjitab
 * and optionally in two columns when there is enough space:

===Etymology===                                    Kanjitab      WP box etym etym etym etym etym etym                      Kanjitab      Other WP box
 * It would be great if we can achieve such an effect with CSS3, but if we cannot, we should look for other ways. For example we can move the wp links to a "See also" or "Further reading" section at the end of the entry, instead of floating on the right. (Similarly, if there are many images to display, they should put in a "Gallery" section.) As stated above, our entry layout is fundamentally flawed and we can never compete with Wikidata or EDICT in efficiency, simply because they maintain Excel-like records while we maintain Word-like pages. If you have edited long documents using Word, you know that every time you use physical markup (bold face, 16pt, ...) instead of logical markup (Heading 1, Heading 2, ...), you make further changes and maintenance harder. --Dine2016 (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Cheers, thanks for the layout illustration.
 * One reason why I started laying out the boxes to use more horizontal space was due to unfortunate vertical spillover as currently seen at 鑿. The Japanese sidebar boxes intrude into the Korean entry and all the way through into the Vietnamese one.  If we apply the static   as I've done in the past, it's not as bad (example, barely impinging on the Korean entry), and if we further use  instead of, it's improved a bit more (example 2, now only causing the horizontal rule to end prematurely, but otherwise not overlapping the Korean entry).
 * I don't suppose you can think of a way for the sidebar layout to automatically factor in the vertical height of the language section? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:09, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Use and layout of Template:ja-spellings
I was cleaning up 🇨🇬 and gave the "wago lemma at hiragana" approach a try.

I'm pretty happy with how looks.

However, I'm not so sure about.


 * In the past, for hiragana entries with multiple pronunciations, I've put the pronunciations at the top and etyms under that -- users could conceivably get to the page after hearing the term, and this allows them to quickly find which pitch pattern they've heard.
 * → Does this make sense to you? Do you have any objections, comments, concerns about this approach?


 * Regardless of whether we have the pronunciation or the etymology at the entry's top level, looks really odd when it's not at the physical top just under the language heading.  For hiragana terms with multiple etyms and differentiated spellings, it doesn't make sense to have  just under the language heading, since not all the spellings are applicable to all of the entry.
 * → Could you have a go at reworking the structure at into something that looks better to you, and let me know when you're happy with it?  I'd like to get a better understanding of your view on how these templates are intended to work together.

Thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:36, 22 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Hmm, yes, clearly I'm not doing something right. While the  box at  is working correctly and fetching summary info, the  box at  isn't able to fetch the defs.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your experiment. You're changing the default format "etymology + pronunciation + POS/def" to the new format "pronunciation + etymology + POS/def". The soft redirection template doesn't support the new format yet, so fails to parse the lemma entry and regarded the whole page as a single word. (Therefore all definitions are copied, and the first  takes precedence so  fails.) It would be possible to make  support the new format (pronunciation before etymology), but I'm afraid it would increase the difficulty of parsing, and hampers Wiktionary data reuse. For example, if there are two pronunciations but three etymology, you may need to have POS headers at L5! Instead, to facilitate looking up by pitch pattern, we can keep the current format (etymology + pronunciation + POS) but remodel  after : as a box with gray background, and show romaji instead of IPA, to make it visually stand out and easily recognizable:


 * Separately: please take a look at the current entry . In Etymology 1, the has うぢ, but  does not, resulting in inconsistency. This is why I prefer to reduce headwords below POS headers to the barest bone and put these info somewhere else.


 * --Dine2016 (talk) 03:02, 23 May 2019 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) :: We do have clear, which stops things from encroaching on other sections, though it also can leave a vertical gap on the left. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * (I think you have posted this comment in the wrong section) :: Thanks for your comment, but I think we should avoid using templates like in mainspace entries as much as possible. As stated above, we're at a disadvantage compared with Wikidata or EDICT because our entries are Word-like pages while theirs are Excel-like records. If you have edited long documents in Word, you know that you can insert a page break with Ctrl-Enter. If you're preparing a version of your document for printing, page breaks may help you get rid of orphans and improve the look of your document. But if you keep page breaks in the master copy of your document, you make further editing inconvenient. For example, add a paragraph before a page break, and the break may be pushed to the top of the next page, making it almost blank. Therefore master copies intended for editing should prefer logical markups to physical markups as much as possible. Similarly, if a Wiktionary entry has too many boxes floating on the right side and there are two ways to solve the problem, one logically (change some of the boxes to non-floating elements, such as  ->, or floating images to galleries) and one physically (, div wrapping, etc.), I think we should prefer the former to the latter. --Dine2016 (talk) 03:37, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * (Also pinging ) By the way, since we have  ?  --Dine2016 (talk) 03:46, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

広東語訓読
Maybe you might find wikisource:ja:Index:柳沢信大『粤東俗字便蒙解』.djvu interesting. Kundoku annotation of Cantonese, "improper" historical spelling, and what looks like a lot of arbitrarily "missing" dakuten. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 06:52, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

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五绝
Hey, just reminding you that you forgot to create the fantizi entry for this term. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 04:19, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

w:Wikipedia:IP block exemption? —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 18:56, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable. ✅ Chuck Entz (talk) 03:16, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Actually Wiktionary isn't blocked in China, but it's very slow without a ladder. --Dine2016 (talk) 02:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

mod:ja-parse "templates_to_exclude"
I noticed mod:ja-parse use a blacklist to exclude templates when copying categories. How about using a whitelist instead? I think not so many categories need to be copied to a soft redirect page and thus not copying an undetermined category by default is better. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Good idea. (quite busy these days so I don't mind if you implement it ahead of me) --Dine2016 (talk) 15:59, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't know what to put in the whitelist. In fact I think none of the categories need copying. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 16:05, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

citations of alternative spellings
Beer parlour/2019/December? —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 06:07, 18 December 2019 (UTC)