User talk:HansRompel

Swadesh lists:

10MAR2018 Added Papiamentu Swadesh list

14MAR2018 Added Papiamentu and other formerly unmentioned languages to the overall Swadesh list.

15APR2018 Added a Papiamentu word lemma for every word mentioned in the Papiamentu Swadesh list.

Papiamento
Hi Hans. The canonical name of the language is Papiamentu; it’s important to use the canonical spelling because links from other pages will not work otherwise. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello Ungoliant. I use the term Papiamento because the main lemma of the language in wikipedia is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papiamento and Papiamentu redirects there. I think these are synonyms. 18MAR2018

Changed all "Papiamento" to "Papiamentu" in the word lemmas. Just for uniformity. 09APR2018

Papiamento or Papiamentu?
The English name for the language is Papiamento. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-2_codes).

But there are two orthographies: the one used in Aruba and the one used in Curaçao and Bonaire. The one used in Curaçao and Bonaire is called 'Papiamentu' (in the local language!) and the one in Aruba 'Papiamento'. So in Curaçao, when one says 'Papiamento' it's pretty clear to mean the Aruban orthography; vice versa, in Aruba everyone knows 'Papiamentu' is the way the people in Curaçao and Bonaire write Papiamento.

Wikpedia has only one version of Papiamento, but that should be two: pap_CW and pap_AW (we might add pap_BQ and/or pap_NL later!).

Is there anyone who can help us differeniate these two orthographies in Wikipedia?

- AceSuares

Cape Verdean Creole
Hi, we call this language Kabuverdianu; its code is. But are these Papiamentu pronouns really derived from the Kabuverdianu ones, rather than merely being cognate with them? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Changed all "Cape Verdian Creole" into Kabuverdianu. Just for uniformity. In this way introducing the first words in that language. 09APR2018

Etymologies
Please stop adding etymologies. You are adding information that is obviously wrong without checking it, and this makes me mistrust your ability to check anything that you are adding. At stima, your etymology is clearly wrong — the term looks like it comes. You also continue to claim that Papiamentu terms are derived from Kabuverdianu, which does not make any sense. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:29, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Mister Metaknowledge, if you knew something about the etymology of Papiamentu, you wouldn't be surprised about the derivation from Kabuverdianu. I refer to the studies of Bart Jacobs in 2008 - 2012.

Jacobs, Bart. 2009a. “The Upper Guinea origins of Papiamento. Linguistic and historical evidence”. https://rodriguezuribe.co/histories/GUINEA.pdf

Jacobs, Bart. 2012. Origins of a creole: The history of Papiamento and its African ties. Berlin: de Gruyter.

17APR2018


 * This seems to be one linguist's pet theory; if it deserves mention, it certainly needs to be couched as a hypothesis. The Spanish/Portuguese etymology is true regardless (at least, when you give it correctly), although as Mahagaja explains below, the way you state it is misleading at best, and needs to be changed. Also, please sign your posts with four tildes, like this: ~ . —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 16:12, 17 April 2018 (UTC)


 * In a lot of your etymologies the problem is the way you word them: You often write "from A, from B, from C", which at Wiktionary usually means "This term comes from A, and A comes from B, and B comes from C", but you seem to use that phrasing to mean "This term comes from A, and from B, and from C." But I do agree with Meta that is more likely to come from the Portuguese and Spanish verbs than from the nouns. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 10:54, 17 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I didn't realize that when I write "from A, from B" this could be read as "A comes from B". That is maddening when it states that a Spanish word is derived from a Cape Verdean word. So today in all lemma's I changed those "from A, from B" into "from A and B". 19APR2018 HansRompel (talk) 13:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * For the record, before I left that comment, Hans had claimed that they came from the verb, and has apparently now changed it. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 16:12, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Mister Metaknowledge. I love your ever positive attitude. I implemented your suggestion for stima. Nice reading for you would be: Jacobs, Bart. 2009a. “The Upper Guinea origins of Papiamento. Linguistic and historical evidence”. https://rodriguezuribe.co/histories/GUINEA.pdf.

For your understanding - The story of Papiamentu is: In the 1500s and 1600s sailors from the south of Spain and the south of Portugal brought their languages to the coasts of African Guinea and the Cape Verdean Isles. In the 1600s and 1700s slaves were brought from there to the Caribbean. Together with the diaspora of Sephardi Jews to the Antilles the Creole language of the Cape Verdean Isles rooted Papiamentu as a lingua franca. In 1800s and 1900s there was significant influence from Spanish. And some influence from Dutch. And some simplification. 19APR2018
 * Even in the context of that hypothesis, I don't see a claim for words actually being derived from Kabuverdianu itself. (Even if such a claim were seriously presented, it would have to be couched as a hypothesis in our etymologies.) If you continue to add etymologies that are obviously wrong or in contravention of what I have just explained, you will be blocked. Also, please sign your posts with four tildes, like this: ~ . —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Papiamentu na
Are you sure that all the senses of derive from Romance? The senses "5. to; 6. towards" (which should probably be a single sense) are not mentioned in the Portuguese and Kabuverdianu entries seem more in line with continental West-Germanic, e.g. (in old texts also ) and. Maybe there are grounds for a split etymology. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  10:57, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Mister Dingo, for your constructive response. For Papiamentu "na" the Majstro dictionary has exactly these six meanings. The first four are also seen in Portuguese and Cape Verdean. The meanings "to" and "towards" are the same as from Dutch "naar". Note that Dutch "na" ("after" or "later") is not used in Papiamentu. So, I agree with you, it is not as Nicoline Van Der Sijs stated in "Nederlandse Woorden Wereldwijd" that ALL Papiamentu "na" come from Dutch "naar" (probably a joke). But more subtle, as Jacoba Bouscholte states in "The Dutch Influence On Papiamentu" on page 168-172, that a few "na" come from Dutch "naar". I copy your suggestion. HansRompel (talk) 18:39, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edit. But I think you may have misread Van der Sijs, who specifies it as "in the direction of" in a 2010 publication. ←₰-→  Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  08:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

The word "na", in the meaning of "to", "towards" and "in the direction of", as derived from the Dutch word "naar", is only used in a limited number of occasions. Mostly it is used in the Portuguese meaning "at", "in", "inside" and "on". Look at the examples: prohibí na Alemania - forbidden in Germany, na aña 2018 - in the year 2018, na tera - on earth, etc. etc. HansRompel (talk) 11:38, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Mister Dingo. Indeed, perhaps the works of Professor Nicoline Van Der Sijs are interesting for you. She is building an "Uitleenwoordenboek" database of Dutch words, used by other languages, and writes interesting articles about that. See https://pure.knaw.nl/portal/files/458170/Nww_compleet_archief.pdf. I hope you understand Dutch. HansRompel (talk) 12:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean?
What do you mean: "Hundreds of Polish surnames. I thought Wikipedia was a dictionary and not a telephone book. Did you have contact with somebody about this? Is somebody interested in this? Get a life, go outside, read a book, meet people in the pub."?--Abraham (talk) 17:25, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Ad hominem
This was a couple weeks ago, but don't do things like this. You'll get blocked. Julia ☺ ☆ 09:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)