User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 15

贏
What is the glyph origin for 贏? Johnny Shiz (talk) 12:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Does it have anything to do with money? Because a lot of characters with the 貝 radical have to do with money: 購, 貨, 財, etc. Johnny Shiz (talk) 01:05, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I've added a glyph origin. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 22:37, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Reverts on 哈囉 and 哈佬
What is the meaning of these reverts? Johnny Shiz (talk) 20:54, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don’t see how they’re phonosemantic matching. Neither of them has any connection to “hello” on a semantic level. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 21:13, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, I was a bit confused with the definition of "phono-semantic matching". Got it now. It wasn't all my fault though; I saw a nearly identical message on 幽默. 幽默 has two definitions: quiet and tranquil, or humor. The latter of those is a phono-semantic match, since the pinyin (yōumò) resembles the pronunciation of "humor". But how does the supposed "match" add up? In other words, how does "humor" relate to "quiet and tranquil"? If such a "match" is indeed nonexistent, should I alter the etymology of 幽默 too? Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 幽默 is a different case. It’s adapting an existing word to a foreign word, so that also counts as phono-semantic. 哈, 囉 and 佬 really don’t have meaning in the words 哈囉 and 哈佬, but in 幽默, the characters do mean something while also matching in sound. If you don’t entirely understand something, I would advise you to ask at WT:TR, WT:BP or WT:ES (whichever one is applicable), or ping me before going ahead with your edits. If you continue to make questionable edits, I don’t know how long you’ll last until you get blocked. I know you’re trying and I’ve seen a lot of improvement, but you still have plenty to learn. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 21:49, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I've already been blocked once. I'll try not to make edits unless I know with ample precision what I am doing. Indeed, if you take a peek at my contributions page, you'll see that I'm now adding entries to Requested entries/Chinese more often than just creating them outright. I now ping you on entry talk pages to gain approval of edits before making them myself. Hopefully that'll reduce the "questionability" of my edits, I presume. Johnny Shiz (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being more careful with your edits. I hope you can continue to learn and be more independent in the future. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 22:40, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

some Zhuang words
I just follow Alifshinobi's suggestion on thwikt (he is a real linguist). By the way, revert/change ltc to zh won't hurt. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:44, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I'd actually like to know what 's view is on this issue then. From what I have read (mostly based on 壯漢同源詞借詞研究), Zhuang probably doesn't borrow directly from Middle Chinese but from a descendant of Middle Chinese that was also the donor to Vietnamese and was the ancestor of Pinghua. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:48, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi and . I'm not a Zhuang expert. So, I should learn from you. The speculation that Zhuang didn't borrow directly from MC (including Early and Late MC) seems reasonable. However, I'm confused because your answer suggests historical borrowing ("that was also the donor to Vietnamese and was the ancestor of Pinghua") and modern borrowing ("probably doesn't borrow directly...a descendant of Middle Chinese" -- perhaps a modern southern dialect of Chinese). Can you please clarify? For historical borrowing, if your argument is that Zhuang borrowed words from a descendent of MC (not a modern descendent), perhaps you can still say that these words are ultimately from MC. For modern borrowing, if you don't know which Chinese dialect a Zhuang word is from, I think it's fine to change ltc to zh, like Octahedron80 did. Please do what you see fit. --A.S. (talk) 03:57, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I meant historical borrowing. If I remember correctly, the author of 壯漢同源詞借詞研究 (and Pan Wuyun) suggests that the Sinitic language (a descendant of Middle Chinese) that gave Zhuang its Chinese loanwords is likely the ancestor of Pinghua. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 04:18, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I see. So these words are ultimately from Middle Chinese. What do you suggest and I do in these cases? Should we use zh or add "ultimately" to from Middle Chinese? Is there an argument against adding "ultimately"? --A.S. (talk) 04:56, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * For single character words, it would be fine to say ultimately from MC per se, but there are some words that look particularly like Cantonese/Pinghua (and not likely from other varieties), such as (where  isn't used in MC for this sense). For consistency, I'd prefer "from Chinese" followed by the etymon with the MC pronunciation (autogenerated by ) given for reference. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:04, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

rejection of Geyin Fuhao
When I was in Wuhan, I would occasionally notice that some advertisements would skip a geyin fuhao. No one understood the "before a o and e" rule, even though it was written in every dictionary and book about Mandarin Chinese. But in Taipei, the number of skipped geyin fuhao is incredible. Is this intentional? Did Taiwan adopt Hanyu Pinyin Fang'an or did they adopt something almost identical to it? Have you noticed this?--Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:59, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think most people are unaware of the official rules concerning pinyin orthography. In Taiwan, it's especially so since its adoption is relatively recent (10 years ago). People may be used to rules from older systems, such as Wade-Giles or Tongyong Pinyin. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:10, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think Chinese people in general know the various rules of pinyin. Just ask them to spell out their name and you'll notice all kinds of renderings - e.g. Wang Jing Ling, Wang Jing-ling, Wang JingLing, etc. It's not something that is paid much attention to. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 05:09, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

桿秤
Hey. What's going on with the synonym there? Its meaning does not line up with the Min Nan definition in the respective entry. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 11:17, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It's referring to the "weighing equipment" sense, which refers to a balance, especially the steelyard. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:04, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. Thanks. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 05:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * One more - could you please check non-Mandarin senses for 開初? ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 02:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I don't see why it's dialectal. It's found in all of the major dictionaries without any label for being dialectal/regional. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:17, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure either. I just noticed it mentioned as one of the senses for childhood in Cantonese. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Only in the figurative sense of childhood as "beginning", but I think it's mostly used as an adverb. Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian both say 開初 is a noun but the examples given are used as adverbs. We might need a noun sense. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:20, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah I had the same thoughts. I've added a noun sense now. Thanks. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 10:09, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Quotation embed -- some help?
Thanks for creating the page 越王頭. Pls add the Nanfang Caomu Zhuang quote + translation and format it accordingly:

“時珍曰︰按稽含《南方草木狀》云︰相傳林邑王與越王有怨，使刺客乘其醉，取其首，懸於樹，化為椰子，其核猶有兩眼，故俗謂之越王頭，而其漿猶如酒也. 此說雖謬，而俗傳以為口實. 南人稱其君長為爺，則椰名蓋取於爺義也. 相如《上林賦》作胥余，或作胥耶. ”

I'm not confident with Wiktionary enough to do it. --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 20:39, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Requests_for_verification/Non-English
Would you like to pronounce RFV failed there? Dokurrat (talk) 07:45, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Merci! Dokurrat (talk) 10:39, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


 * No problem! — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:31, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

教會, Chinese Interwiki
How can the absence of the Chinese interwiki link for the term 教會 be remedied without doing what I did? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 14:56, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm not sure why it's not showing up. I'll ask at Grease Pit. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:59, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Module:zh/data/dial-syn/價錢?
Hi Justin,

There seems to be large dialectal differences for the word price in Chinese topolects, e.g Wu. Are you able to access dialectal data on this? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:06, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem like there are large dialectal differences. It's 價錢 in most southern dialects, where most dialectal variation occurs. Even Wu 價鈿 is actually just 價錢 (because 鈿 comes from 錢). I'll look around to see what I can find. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 00:25, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks, no worries. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I've attempted to make one. Most dialect survey resources do not include this word, so that's about all I have so far. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:29, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks.
 * I think Dungan could be added to the dialectal map as "Kyrgyzstan"(?) All terms that have Dungan readings and also have "Module:zh/data/dial-syn" could be added. e.g. in . Can it be done as an experiment first? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, it seems like you haven't realized that Dungan has already been added to the dialectal map a few months ago. The two major dialects, Gansu and Shaanxi, are represented by Sokuluk and Masanchin  respectively. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:41, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, good to know but I don't think Gansu and Shaanxi dialects are the same as Kyrgyzstan Dungan, which will have many non-Sinitic words as well, just like Min Nan can have words from Japanese in POJ. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be implying that they are the same as the Gansu and Shaanxi dialects. Those are just the traditional names given to the Dungan dialects spoken in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. That's why we have  in the label. For non-Sinitic words, I usually follow 东干语调查研究 by 林涛 if it gives Chinese characters for it. Otherwise, it'd be fine to leave it in Cyrillic, just like we have POJ for Min Nan. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:52, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if it's a good idea to put the Cyrillic version in the dialectal tables as well. The map would interpret that as a different word and create an extra point on the map. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 04:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I thought it might be the case. I've taken it out. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:21, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

雺
This entry have some dialectal meaning, but I don't know where to put them.--115.27.194.67 20:03, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

撥弄
Hey Justin, which senses does Min Nan 變弄 refer to here? ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Another entry is 蒼茫. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 06:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * And 操勞. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 06:31, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * And 摻和. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 08:17, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * And 瘋狂. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It should be clearer in the entries now. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Xinku le! ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 06:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Mei wenti! — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Just noticed another one here: 呆滯. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 04:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

痙 Min Nan reading
I found a page via a web search that seems to give a Min Nan reading for 痙 as "kēng" when converted from Modern Literal Taiwanese romanization to POJ. I didn't want to add it without checking with an expert first. Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 14:03, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks right to me :D — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:44, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Is "kěng" using a correct POJ tone mark? It's using a caron rather than a circumflex. Bumm13 (talk) 05:50, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's the 6th tone unique to the Quanzhou dialect. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:14, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

"火艶"
Is there any special way to translate "火艶" other than flame? I'm kind of stumped with this one. Cheers! Bumm13 (talk) 07:21, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I would interpret it as meaning "(of fire) burning brightly/beautifully", but this is just an educated guess. The definitions in ancient dictionaries often have the form N + V/A, so that's I would interpret this one. It's a definition (for 炃, I assume) that is only found in  without any actual attestation AFAIK. Also, I would point you to guoxuedashi.com, which would have more resources to help you with the translations. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 07:40, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Geyin Fuhao
Like I was saying before, Taiwan just does not GET geyin fuhao. They like to put in a dash or just ignore it. So it just gets fantastically uncoordinated. Do you happen to know if Tongyong Pinyin had the geyin fuhao? I bet they had a dash. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It's not even just Taiwan. It's probably most people because the geyin fuhao isn't really taught very well. And you're right - it is a dash for Tongyong Pinyin (at least for 地名譯寫原則). — justin(r)leung { (t...) 04:47, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

文
Hi. I recently added one sense "script; written form" there; I wonder if this sense has tone sandhi in Cantonese or not. Would you like to enlighten me? Dokurrat (talk) 06:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No, there's no tone change for the examples you gave. BTW, Cantonese doesn't really have tone sandhi, which is phonologically conditioned tone change. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:15, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, merci beaucoup! I see. Dokurrat (talk) 06:18, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Bienvenue! — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Non-English#扮撚晒嘢
Did you mean “ can be inserted after any verb in any verb + object construction, like →,  → ,  → .”? Dokurrat (talk) 16:38, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. 唱晒歌 technically could exist, but it's kinda weird. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:45, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. And you're welcome. Dokurrat (talk) 05:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

o͘-nín-gió͘
Hi,

Is the spelling o͘-nín-gió͘ ("doll") from valid for Min Nan? The pronunciation module can't handle the second syllable "nín". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:06, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it should be "o͘-lín-gió" -, as in . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:11, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This has 'oo33 lin55 gioo51', so o͘-lín-gió͘ would be another way to spell it. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 23:44, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, please take a look at [[o͘-lín-gió]] and [[娃娃]] (Shanghainese) - I don't fully understand the sentence structure, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:42, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * For 娃娃, did you happen to get the sentence from somewhere? The character choice is interesting. I would've expected 我 instead of 吾, 隻 instead of 扎 and 撥 (4peq) instead of 把. Also, I see you've added 吾 as an alternative form for 我 in Hakka (and Wu) - where did you get this from? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:52, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're welcome to try . Wyang gave me the link a while ago. It has many audio recordings as well - there's also an app. The difficulty is that they use very colloquial pronunciations, often "Mandarinised" pronunciations and non-standard/colloquial characters. They replace hard to use characters like with . Always use, never . The phrase comes from . You can find some words by searching Mandarin words (simplified) in the search window. I'd like to standardise phrases from this site in the Wiktionary (if I knew all substitutes) but perhaps we can enhance Wiktionary with these colloquial usages - variants? Please replace with more standard characters, as you see fit. I also have two little textbooks on Shanghainese at home. I used words from there in the past. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's best to put a reference when you take a sentence from somewhere. Umm, also, I'm wondering where you got 吾 as an alternative form for 我 in Hakka. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:30, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Possibly from some sample sentences. I've taken it out. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:37, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks! For Hakka, you might've been thinking of 吾 ngâ, the first-person possessive. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 07:09, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Min Nan entries
Hi,

When you have a chance, could you please check these entries: and ? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:20, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 罕行 is an adjective (or possibly a verb), despite it being glossed as 稀客. 那講那罵 seems to be SoP, and I can only see three hits on Google, which may not be a good sign. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:37, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. That's what I was checking. I really wasn't sure what PoS 罕行 is. I found 那講那罵 accidentally http://210.240.194.97/taigu.asp - not all words POJ are valid there, unfortunately.
 * BTW, I looked again at 台湾語会話かいわフレーズブック I mentioned to you, it's good but I lied about hanzi only in the book, there are a few words (particles, etc.) written in POJ (sometimes with comment like "also can be written as ...". I struggle to find a couple of words but I still think it's a good book and good audio in three languages - ja/nan/cmn Min Nan and (Taiwanese) Mandarin have also full romanisations - POJ and pinyin. I'm not so familiar with Hokkien accent but in the audio, /l/ sometimes sounds like the Japanese flap /ɾ/ to my ear.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:50, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 is pretty good with PoS's AFAIK, so you could follow it most of the time. The book you recommended looks interesting, but I probably won't be getting it anytime soon. /l/ in Hokkien is definitely more like a flap (and may even be phonologically analysed as a stop). — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:58, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I am using it but occasionally it seems wrong, another recent example was "bî-tha-mín". Wrong POJ, isn't it?
 * Thanks for explaining, otherwise I was worried that the recordings were made by people with the Japanese accent - I could clearly hear the tones, though. Tawianese Mandarin without any erhua, hardly any neutral tones and funny ending particles sounded quite unusual to me as well. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not sure which you mean by "it" - you mean Tw-Ch台文中文辭典? 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 has bi33 ta55 bin51, which would be bi-tá-bín or bî-tá-bín. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:12, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I mean Tw-Ch台文中文辭典. If you search for 維他命, it will give these results - "bî-tá-mín' and "bî-tha-mín". Is "mín" a valid syllable (not "bín")? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:18, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you sure it's 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典? It only has bi33 ta55 bin51. 台文華文線頂辭典 (or Tw-Ch台文中文辭典) is the one that has bî-tá-mín and bî-tha-mín. In real life, [min] may be a valid pronunciation of the last syllable, but I think we should stick to "legal" syllables, i.e. m only occurs with nasalized rimes. Maryknoll gives bi-tah-bín, bi-tá-mín and bî-tá-mín, and Embree has bi-tá-mín (not sure about the tone of the first syllable). — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:27, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

變變
Could you help me check the Min Nan here? I have created two separate thesaurus entries for "to change" - one for the transitive verbs (Thesaurus:更改), and one for the intransitive verbs (Thesaurus:變化). Thanks. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 12:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 變變 seems to be transitive from the example sentence in 闽南方言大词典, which defines it as "变换；改动". — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No problem :D — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:03, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

About loi-ceu
Maybe you can explain why undo my edits about loi-ceu? Davidzdh (talk) 03:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you have any source that writes it as 𡳞鳥? I've only seen it written as 䐯鳥, 脧友, 脧鳥, 腡鳥 or 螺鳥. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:59, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I will write 䐯鳥, 脧友, 脧鳥, 腡鳥 and 螺鳥 later. Thank you for telling me. Davidzdh (talk) 05:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I would only create an entry for one of them, probably 䐯鳥, and put the rest as alternative forms for now. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * That's what I mean. I'm sorry for having not said it clearly. Tks! Davidzdh (talk) 06:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello. I noticed that you have added a rfv mark in 庳哩 and I just want to know how to build a existed but character-questionable word. Use Bàng-uâ-cê? Davidzdh (talk) 22:30, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * We currently do not allow Bàng-uâ-cê entries. I'm not really sure how we should deal with these, to be honest. I often hold off on creating an entry until I have sufficient evidence from more reliable sources for the characters. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 00:07, 31 May 2019 (UTC)