User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 34

烏国
I am seeing Taiwanese news media using this phrase. The longer version, 烏克蘭 is also used. I'm not sure if this qualifies as clearly widespread use, but I only watched it for a few minutes before encountering it about three times in the written form. I was only paying attention to the written headlines. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 12:50, 7 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I wasn't paying attention to whether or not it was 国 or 國 — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 12:56, 7 March 2022 (UTC)


 * That looks like a mixed traditional-simplified form, which shouldn't have an entry. has made an entry for 烏國. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 17:01, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Understood. I just forgot that 国 is simplified. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 02:22, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation Note Misbehaving
I'm trying to add in the pronunciation notes that Penang doesn't really use a pronunciation as colloquial. The following was what I attempted to put for mn_note. "|mn_note=ēng - vernacular; iōng - literary; Penang: iōng". The entry that I am trying to edit is 用— Fredrick Campbell (talk) 10:33, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not misbehaving; it was meant to work that way. I've changed to show that it only applies to the other regions. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 18:30, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm actually dissatisfied that it can't show more than one region's peculiarities. Do you know where I can find the code? — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 05:01, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, if formatted like Pronunciation 1 in 於, it can't show more than one definition's pronunciation. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 05:20, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It can actually. See 母 for an example. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:47, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 07:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect Gwoyeu Romatzyh orthography
Hi. I wrote this note on another page (Wiktionary talk:About Chinese) but I haven't had a reply yet. Maybe it was the wrong place.

I noticed that the Gwoyeu Romatzyh for 也 is given as "yyie". It should be "yee", but you can't edit it directly. Does anyone know how to fix this? The same problem occurs for 野, and 野犬, and presumably anywhere the GR equivalent of pinyin yě (namely "yee") is needed. Richwarm88 (talk) 22:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for finding this error. It should be fixed now. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 08:13, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Wonderful. Thank you. By the way, is the Wiktionary's GR generated from a pinyin-2-GR table, and if so, is there a link to the code? I'm thinking maybe I could cast my eye over it to see if there are any issues with syllables other than "yee". -- Richwarm88 (talk) 10:37, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * It's not generated by a table, but some code in MOD:cmn-pron. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 18:08, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * (1) Thanks. I tried to use that code to generate a table so that I could check the PY2GR conversions, but unfortunately I was unable to get the script to run.
 * (2) However, I've noticed that the GR-generating code does not observe the following orthographical rule relating to neutral-tone syllables in Gwoyeu Romatzyh (GR):
 * "A dot (usually written as a period or full stop) may be placed before neutral tone syllables, which appear in their original tonal spelling: e.g. 朋友 perng.yeou" (my emphasis).
 * So it's perng.yeou — not perng.iou, as the Wiktionary entry for 朋友 states.
 * Evidently Wiktionary's GR-generating code is indiscriminately converting neutral syllables to first tone rather than using the original tone. Is this something that Wiktionary is interested in fixing? Fixing it would require the code to use more than just the Pinyin spelling as input, since the original tone of a neutral-tone syllable is not evident in Pinyin spelling. For example, to convert péngyou to GR, you would need to determine the original tone of "you", and to do that you would need to examine the corresponding hanzi (友). It's not enough to just look at the Pinyin "you".
 * Alternatively, is it possible to override the generated GR if it's incorrect? E.g. replace reh.nhau with reh.naw in the entry for 熱鬧. -- Richwarm88 (talk) 05:20, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * For testing, you could try Module:cmn-pron/testcases. —Fish bowl (talk) 05:30, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * @Fish bowl Thanks. That page shows that PY2GR conversion works correctly for several dozen cases, but none of those cases is a word containing a neutral tone. Even if there were such a case, one couldn't necessarily confirm that the conversion was correct without seeing the hanzi (in order to determine the original tone of the neutral syllable). None of the PY2GR test cases on that page displays the hanzi. Richwarm88 (talk) 06:59, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the neutral tone case is interesting. I think we can perhaps somehow indicate the original tone in our input, perhaps something like  or  ? There are many entries where the neutral tone occurs, so we'd have to go in to those entries and change them. We would also need to make some changes on the module to make this possible. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 20:47, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It would be great if it could be fixed. Your suggestion ("somehow indicate the original tone in our input, perhaps something like  or  ") sounds very good. Maybe the input as it is at present (e.g.  ) could remain valid (so you don't have to change too many entries) but there could be an optional extra input like   that would be used by the PY2GR conversion code whenever the extra input is available. Perhaps a bot could add this extra input, at least in cases where the hanzi in question has only one possible original tone (as with the 友 in 朋友). In other cases, where the hanzi has more than one possible original tone (like 量 in 力量), the extra input (in this case,   rather than  ) could be gradually added manually by human contributors. I'm afraid I don't know Wiktionary well enough to be able to carry out these suggestions (allowing an optional extra input, modifying the PY2GR code, and creating a bot to insert extra inputs such as  ). However, I would be able to do some of the manual work like adding   as an extra input in order to generate the correct GR,.
 * Having said all that, I now see that Wiktionary does in fact have the correct GR  for 力量! It does not indiscriminately make the second syllable Tone 1 (which would have made it  ). So it seems Wiktionary already has a way to make the GR correct. Perhaps a clue lies in the fact that the Pinyin in that entry is specified as "Pinyin: lìliàng → lìliang (toneless final syllable variant)". That formulation seems to have been added in that 力量 entry by Wyang in 2014.  -- Richwarm88 (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I checked the pinyin specification in the entry for 力量. It says, and that last bit, "tl=y" appears to be the key. If you change it to just  , the generated GR is no longer correct; it appears in the preview as  . -- Richwarm88 (talk) 22:19, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if that would give different output, and indeed it does. I think the issue is that y should only be used when both neutral and non-neutral pronunciations are "standard" (so-called 重·次輕詞語). — justin(r)leung { (t...) 22:36, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I see. So if  is not considered a standard variant pronunciation in mainland China, then we can't use   in the entry for 朋友. Well, even if that's the case, it seems like it should not require too much of an extension to Wiktionary's pronunciation format to specify an original-tone pronunciation that would enable correct conversion to GR. Currently there are the following keywords: tl, tl2 and tl3. Here is a piece of relevant code in Module:cmn-pron    I note also that there is an example at "Template:cmn-pron", where the "tl2" keyword ("ToneLess in position 2" keyword) is used in the case of 對不起. If "tl" can only be used when both neutral and non-neutral pronunciations are "standard", perhaps another keyword, say "atl" (i.e. "Always ToneLess" in standard Mandarin) should be added to enable correct GR conversions. So for 朋友, instead of  , it might look like  . -- Richwarm88 (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I see. So if  is not considered a standard variant pronunciation in mainland China, then we can't use   in the entry for 朋友. Well, even if that's the case, it seems like it should not require too much of an extension to Wiktionary's pronunciation format to specify an original-tone pronunciation that would enable correct conversion to GR. Currently there are the following keywords: tl, tl2 and tl3. Here is a piece of relevant code in Module:cmn-pron    I note also that there is an example at "Template:cmn-pron", where the "tl2" keyword ("ToneLess in position 2" keyword) is used in the case of 對不起. If "tl" can only be used when both neutral and non-neutral pronunciations are "standard", perhaps another keyword, say "atl" (i.e. "Always ToneLess" in standard Mandarin) should be added to enable correct GR conversions. So for 朋友, instead of  , it might look like  . -- Richwarm88 (talk) 23:18, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

才調秀出
Just letting you know, in case there is a Cantonese pronunciation that you want to add. The dog2 (talk) 23:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've added it. You can just use in the entry if you want a Cantonese pronunciation added. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 18:09, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

鸐
I found a pronunciation stated as (tek8) in William Campbell's Amoy Vernacular Dictionary amoytainan.wordpress.com. I've edited that in. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 07:52, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I would recommend this interface to look at the original scans from the dictionary. You should also indicate pronunciations from this dictionary with xm: before the pronunciation. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 14:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Noted. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 09:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Snow melting vocab in 現代漢語方言大詞典
Just wanna get your opinion. So in 現代漢語方言大詞典, there's dialectal vocab on how each dialect says "snow melted", like "雪化了", "雪消咧", etc. Do you think that's SOP, or it can be included in Wiktionary? As a side comment though, I sometimes find the SOP rule an obstacle for users, because sometimes SOP entries are really useful for people. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:42, 26 March 2022 (UTC)


 * These are definitely SoP. I would not make them. These could probably be examples at 雪, 化, 消, etc. Without SoP, I think it would just invite a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't make sense in a dictionary. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:50, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Uselessness of Geyin Fuhao
Hey, I have been getting deep on Geyin Fuhao again, and I've realized that there is almost no situation in English where the Geyin Fuhao differentiates two nouns that could be confused. The closest example is Jinan (Ji'nan) and Jin'an, but those locations are literally hundreds of miles apart and not easily confused. The best argument that geyin fuhao can differentiate words is something like Xinan/Xin'an; still a weak argument to me. The only remaining practical value of Geyin Fuhao in English is as a pronunciation aid, but I think that if you say "Xian" out loud to someone learning it, they'll get it. I'm coming here to ask you: can you personally think of one good example (in English) of where the Geyin Fuhao differentiates two easily confused nouns? If not, what about two nouns that are kinda hard to confuse? And does Geyin Fuhao really have the pronunciation aid function for the book-bound who never hear the word spoken? I ask all these questions because I'm finding that Reuters has already jumped ship on the Geyin Fuhao in several cases- Boao, Puer, Xian, Xiongan, and Yanan. Not to mention Tiananmen Square. Any opinions or insight would be helpful; see my wild ramblings at Talk:隔音符號 if you want to go down the rabbit hole. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:26, 30 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I mean if you're just talking about places without any context, it could very well help. Of course, that doesn't really happen in real life that much, but there's a slight chance it could still happen. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 00:01, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * That's exactly what I'm asking you for- an example of it helping. The only two I can find are Jinan/Ji'nan (but these seem hard to confuse- the context clues would be key) and Xinan/Xin'an (this is the best argument I can find that it helps anywhere at all). I just find it interesting that these are the only examples of it helping in English. I'm just turning sour on this apostrophe since examples of the Geyin Fuhao actually helping in any specific scenario are scarce as hen's teeth and Reuters is avoiding it. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't have any atm. Its main goal is to help people split syllables, so it's still useful in that sense, I think. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 00:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey, let me know if you have any input on Qiqihaer. I made it t3 in the page. In your eyes, does it need a usage note, qualifier or something else somewhere? Will the general public be able to use the entry to link Qiqihar and Qiqihaer? More cites? Etymology changes? Should it even be a t3? How can I help younger people who are trying to figure out the difference between Qiqihar and Qiqihaer? For instance, I always remember thinking: oh, they just skipped the 'e', but Qiqihar is still pinyin. But it's not apparently. Still need to figure out the exact origins on that. Thanks for all advice if any. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:09, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

help
I don't know where to ask questions like these so I figured I'd ask here. Please let know me if there is a more appropriate place though.

Hi I'm a research assistant trying to build a cognate set in IPA for every Sinitic variety.

I tried https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Module:zh/data/dial-pron, which has IPA for about 1,000 cognate sets across 39 varieties.

however, i realized that wiktionary has significantly more data for every variety in each variety's own transcription system (e.g. POJ, PFS, Jyutping, etc). as such, I plan to augment this tool https://github.com/dmort27/epitran to convert from each variety's phonetic transcription to IPA.

As I stumbled across the sheer amount of Wiktionary entries for many Sinitic varieties, I was curious how Wiktionary users added so many entries. I can't find the sources (except for Phonetic Database of Modern Chinese Dialects listed on https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Module:zh/data/dial-pron), and I imagine that someone wrote a script to scrape from some digital corpus.

Is there one central, digital resource from which many entries are added, or at least one for each variety? Or do users manually enter the data from a book.

also, is there already some resource on Wiktionary that converts from each variety's phonetic transcription to IPA? I've seen some entries using Sinological IPA, which I could then convert to IPA, but it doesn't seem like most entries have this.

finally, are you aware of any tool that parses Chinese entries on Wiktionary? i tried parsing the XML dump, but it takes a really long time.

thank you in advance!!

Aiyaaaaaaaaa (talk) 21:53, 1 April 2022 (UTC)Aiyaaaaaaaaa


 * Thank you for your questions. You'd be surprised to find that actually a lot of what we do is manual. There are several different sources for pronunciation information, none of which are completely digitized in a useful way AFAIK. There should be information on the subpages of User:Justinrleung/Dialect Resources. One source that might not be listed there is 汉语方音字汇. There are also additional resources on Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka and Min Nan. You may want to check out Module:zh/data.
 * For romanization to IPA, we definitely have modules that do this conversion for us. They should be on most entries if you click on the expand button. You should check out MOD:zh-pron and the modules mentioned in the documentation there.
 * As for tools for parsing Chinese entries, you could check out MOD:zh. The functions there are kind of brute force, so if you have any suggestions, please let us know! There might be other parsers out there external to Wiktionary, but I'm not very familiar with the tools. You may want to go to WT:Information desk to ask. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 22:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, perhaps might be able to help you with some of the more technical questions. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 22:23, 1 April 2022 (UTC)


 * User:Erutuon maintains zh-pron extractions: https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/templatehoard/dump/latest/. —Fish bowl (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Fish bowl and @Justinrleung!! This information is very helpful. I will check those out!! Aiyaaaaaaaaa (talk) 03:26, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Unlabeled definitions for Chinese entries
When a definition has no labels, is it meant to mean "applicable to all varieties of Chinese"? — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 07:28, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Ideally, but it often means applicable to Standard Chinese. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 16:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Is there a way to automatically detect these?
--172.58.88.167 05:58, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) The   parameter in  does not match the code point of the page title (example);  should just get the code point from the page title by default, like  does.
 * 2) The   parameter in  is the same as the page title (example); this prevents the "#" and the tooltip from being displayed in the "simp." cell.

One more thing: --172.58.31.8 04:26, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
 * misplaced apostrophes in pinyin (example); i.e. an apostrophe preceding [b-df-hj-np-tw-z].

嘌呤
Hi Justin. I note that the Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian reads: 英语 beer 音译. Do you think this is possible, maybe through a non-Mandarin 'lect? Or is it a typo? ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 02:07, 16 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Probably a typo. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 16:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think you're right. Thank you. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 23:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

恩義
Greetings, Justin. Up until very recently, I have been always under the mistaken impression that 恩義 primarily means "gracious act, favor" (I ever parse it as righteousness 義 of favor 恩) (based on how 恩義's Sino-Vietnamese reflexes ân/ơn nghĩa is primarily used in Vietnamese) and secondarily "feeling of gratitude and loyalty/obligation [for favor received]"; until these two early attestations in Baihutong (Tjan Tjoe Som's translation) & Lunheng (Forke's translation) confirm that 恩義 primarily means "feeling of gratitude and loyalty/obligation [for favor received]".



Still, I wonder if the extended meaning "gracious act, favor" < "feeling of gratitude and loyalty/obligation" were present in Chinese (at least vernacular) as well. For examples, in these Sanguo Yanyi passages 恩義 apparently means "favor, kindness" (translation by me):

While 想起當日曹操許多恩義 is also translatable as "Now Guan Yu recalls his feelings of much gratitude towards Cao Cao's promise (to let him go back to Liu Bei)", I don't think 恩義 in the 2nd scenario, which features Zhang Fei & Yan Yan, to be Yan Yan's feelings of gratitude towards Zhang Fei.

Thanks in advance!

Erminwin (talk) 17:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi. I'm not entirely sure. Hanyu Da Cidian only has one definition 道義；恩情, and Guoyu Cidian only has 深厚的恩情義氣. In the first Sanguo passage, the 許 should not be analyzed separately from 多. It should be 許多 + 恩義 = many 恩義. It does seem like in these quotes from Sanguo, they are actions that come out of one's affection/gratitude and loyalty rather than merely a feeling., any thoughts? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 18:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I guess 義 had developed a separate sense of "義氣" or "情義" by the time of ROTK. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:11, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

綜合症
In my experience, this is very commonly used among mainlanders, perhaps even more than 綜合徵. What do you think? ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 10:16, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It'd be best to find some Mainland sources that show this. It seems like it might be informally/nonstandardly used in Mainland China, with 綜合徵 being more "standard". — justin(r)leung { (t...) 18:14, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Thank you. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 08:08, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

綴人走
Doesn't the word "elope" refer to an unmarried person running away from home to marry their lover? I'm not sure people use the term "elope" to refer to a married person running away with their illicit lover. The dog2 (talk) 22:39, 25 April 2022 (UTC)


 * See the English entry. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 22:41, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

How to Characterize Lvliang and Lvshunkou
Hey, I am wondering: if you have an opinion, what would be the appropriate way to characterize these words with {{lb|en| or in the etymologies- I think I found the "origins" of the ü -> v switch- see Talk:Lvliang. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * {{re|Geographyinitiative}} Perhaps "proscribed"? But I think it's just fine to not label it any more than "alternative form of". — justin(r)leung {{sub|{ (t...) | c=› }}} 00:11, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * What about 'colloquial' or 'informal' too, since the local gov and train station use it, plus all the Chinese ethnicity authors in the cites? Like Wu Han? Just brainstorming. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh oh, I got another question--- could Lienchiang as the name for the Matsu's get the label 'rare'? I will start a Talk page discussion. Again, sorry for asking all these questions, feel free to ignore. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC)


 * {{re|Geographyinitiative}} Good point about the v spellings used in more official contexts. I think it's more of a typographic convenience than a matter of formality, kind of like using  or  instead of <ö> or <ü> in German names, so I'm not quite sure if any of these labels are quite accurate either.


 * About Lienchiang, I'm not sure if it's exactly synonymous to the Matsu Islands, but the official administration of the islands. I'm also not sure if it's rare. — justin(r)leung {{sub|{ (t...) | c=› }}} 20:29, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

MOD:zh/data/dial-pron module
Hi. I realize you are not the user who made https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Module:zh/data/dial-pron but do you have any idea how the user who made that module compiled the entries? I'm guessing it was manual transcription from 現代漢語方言音庫? User:Aiyaaaaaaaaa
 * I believe there was a PDF that was used to make the modules. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)


 * oh as in the author of dial-pron used OCR to transcribe the PDF's contents into text
 * or did you mean he used a PDF version of 現代漢語方言音庫? Aiyaaaaaaaaa (talk) 03:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * There was a PDF that compiled all the readings from the 現代漢語方言音庫 series into a table. I'm not sure who made the PDF or how it was made. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:31, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah I see. thank you! Aiyaaaaaaaaa (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

萬劫不復的深淵
Do you think this is SoP, or do you think it should get an entry because it is a standard expression? The dog2 (talk) 02:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it's SoP. It could be a collocation . — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:10, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

New Chengyu
Just so you know, I created a few new chengyu entries. You might want to add or check the Cantonese pronunciations of 含飴弄孫, 說古道今 and 不溫不火. For the latter in particular, please see if you can come up with a better translation. I'm having difficulty thinking of how to translate it to English. The dog2 (talk) 16:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

播種
Could you take a look at this entry? I've tried to make some changes to reflect the two distinct readings and meanings given in the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Xiandai Hanyu Cidian (page 99). I'm not sure if I structured the entry correctly. Also, the non-Mandarin readings need to be checked. Thanks. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 10:08, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've fixed it. Where did you get bōzhòng as the standard reading for etymology 1? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 15:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that was my mistake. I think it should be correct now based on your edits. Thank you. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 23:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Complaint
Hi,

My edits were undone by an auto-patroller who was quite rude in their edit summaries about my edits (the edits appear under a different IP as my IP is dynamic). While my edits may not have been correct (which I have still not been convinced that they are incorrect as their reasoning for undoing my edits were very cryptic and difficult to understand), I felt that it was quite rude and unprofessional for them (especially given that they are a staff member), and as such would like to report this. Because there is no administrators' noticeboard on English Wiktionary, I would like to come to you to ask about this. First and second edit summaries in which they had made these remarks.

--2001:569:7C0E:300:A914:D247:44EE:B046 23:04, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi, I agree that their remarks were a bit overboard, but the reversions are correct. There is no way for an English letter to have Middle/Old Chinese pronunciations or literary/vernacular distinctions., please be reminded that even if the edits are atrocious, they are still people at the other end. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 23:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That said, everyone is a volunteer. Being an autopatroller just means their edits are generally trusted by the community. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 23:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Be careful Fish bowl! You are of course right! Keep your cool! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:46, 12 May 2022 (UTC)


 * It looks like the IP editor just copied the pronunciations from 直. It's certainly anachronistic to include  and  . That said, it would be good to include pronunciations in other Chinese dialects/languages, assuming Z is used in them, but this should be done more carefully rather than blindly copying and pasting. 98.170.164.88 23:51, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's exactly the issue and why the reversions are needed. Inferring pronunciations is a big no-no. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 23:54, 12 May 2022 (UTC)