User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 9

木樵
Could you help me with this Hakka entry when you have the time? Thanks. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 06:15, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

女人
w:zh:Category:女性人物 says: 中文词汇“女人”为“妇女”、“女性”的俗称，“女性人物”不能简称为“女人”. 百科全书分类中使用口语化的“女人”来对女性（妇女）称谓不雅.

I don't know how to indicate this.--Zcreator alt (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the usage note there should suffice. To me, it's not so 口语化 as to being colloquial; Xiandai Hanyu Cidian and Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian do not indicate it as colloquial either. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 14:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

僆
Hello. Would it be possible for you to take a look at this character? The senses "newly hatched chicken" and "twin" are listed under different fanqie spellings in Guangyun and therefore different pronunciations in Hanyu Da Zidian, but they are under the same pronunciation in 漢語多功能字庫 and the Mandarin, Min Nan, and Cross-Straits dictionary on MOEdict. In addition, some Cantonese and Hakka senses might be missing. --Dine2016 (talk) 05:34, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * While it's true that Guangyun has different pronunciations for different senses, it seems like they have been conflated in many dictionaries. That's why there is only one pronunciation in most of those sources you've mentioned. The Min Nan dictionary doesn't actually include a pronunciation for the "twin" sense; the definitions are just a copy of the ones from Guoyu Cidian because the actual dictionary only gives the pronunciation and doesn't include definitions. I am not aware of any dialect that uses 僆 for the "twin" sense anymore. The Hakka word is the same word as "chick"; in most dialects where this word is retained, it has a specialized meaning of "female chick that has not laid eggs". The Cantonese leng1 is debatable; its pronunciation doesn't correspond well with the other dialects or the Guangyun fanqie. leng1 is most often written as 𡃁. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 13:43, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

吃茶
Hey Justin, I'm getting: "The dial-syn page 「喝茶」 does not yet exist. Create the data page and the map!" Do you know what's up? ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 00:52, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * That's the message that comes up if a synonym data module doesn't exist yet. I'm still in the progress of compiling it, so hang on there. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 04:06, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for your hard work. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 04:10, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's done. Thanks for your work as well. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:37, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

搞笑
Could you check the Cantonese usage here when you get time? Does it really mean "ridicule"? Thanks. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's what it means. It should be the same as the Mandarin senses. Where did you get that sense? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 01:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I saw it listed as a synonym for that very sense, but I can't remember which entry it was. If it's wrong, please make the necessary changes. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 04:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, I can't find where you got this from either. I've removed the sense from the entry and removed the word from the thesaurus. BTW, I don't know if some of those words fit into the thesaurus, e.g. 開玩笑 (not "mock" but "joke"). — justin(r)leung { (t...) 12:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, some of the synonyms might be too far from the original sense. I need to think on this too. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 03:00, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

|人|alt1=亻
Hey again- I have noticed that you sometimes seem to delete the "alt1=亻" or alt1= whatever that I add to a glyph origin. (for instance with 俶). This time you said, "already in seal script". Do you mean to say that 亻did not exist in seal script, and therefore 亻 should not be included in the glyph origin? Thanks for your help. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:01, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The current form descends from the seal script form. Since the compound is formed in the seal script, I don't think we should include 亻 in the glyph origin. I think we should only use alt for characters formed in the clerical script or the regular script. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 17:22, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I get it. I will keep that in mind from now on. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:07, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

温
How would 温 be considered a variant traditional character? Moedict redirects to 溫. Obviously in calligraphy 溫 is often written as 温, but surely we shouldn't include it simply for that reason? Because then we would have to include hundreds of such cases... ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 15:34, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It's the standard in Hong Kong according to the . Search for 温 here. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:51, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Zdic doesn't display that info for either 温 or 溫 under its 字源字形. Do we have any examples "in the wild"? ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 00:43, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't expect to find this kind of info at zdic. Here are some examples:  . — justin(r)leung { (t...) 01:01, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. Thanks! ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 01:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

風水Variant Pronunciations Problem
Hello again: I have encountered a problem inputting the variant Mandarin pronunciations for the term 風水. In the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian Ed 7, 風水 is a word with a toneless final syllable variant. In Taiwan's http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cbdic/, 風水 is a qingsheng word 轻声词. How can I include both of these on the 風水 page? I tried to make an edit, but I can only see the Mainland pronunciation at this point. Thanks for any help. Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:39, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I've fixed it. Just a few reminders:
 * You need to put all the pronunciations first before you put the other parameters (e.g.  instead of  )
 * Do not rely on 重編國語辭典 for standard pronunciations in Taiwan; it has a section in the appendix called 《重編國語辭典修訂本》與《國語一字多音審訂表》取音差異表, so it does not follow the current standards in Taiwan. Use 國語辭典簡編本 instead. See question 3 here.
 * I think we should be following 现代汉语规范词典 as the main Mainland standard on pronunciation rather than 现代汉语词典.
 * — justin(r)leung { (t...) 16:50, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, I will use 國語辭典簡編本 as the Taiwan standard, thanks. As for the mainland standard, in my understanding, the Putonghua Proficiency Test manuals specifically use the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian as the pronunciation standard and specifically do not use Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian as standard. In my understanding the "Guifan hierarchy" is 1)Shenyinbiao 2)Xinhua Zidian and 3)Xiandai Hanyu Cidian. I will gather more evidence about this question and get back to you. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:22, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, interesting. I hope to hear back from you soon about this. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 00:56, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm still thinking about/learning about this problem. Here's one of the words affected by the difference between the two dictionaries: 安生. How would you handle this word? I added notes about the differences between the two dictionaries on the talk page. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The biggest difference I've found between the two dictionaries is how they deal with qingsheng. That's why I want to know which of the two dictionaries is more authoritative. Do you have more evidence that says that puts 现代汉语词典 as the standard over 现代汉语规范词典?, any thoughts? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 14:01, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about linguistic politics. But I'll use my common sense:
 * Is Putonghua more like French and Spanish (regulated by authority) or English (driven by social usage)? I'd say it's the first one, as there is law (中华人民共和国国家通用语言文字法), and actual linguistic regulations (e.g. 通用规范汉字表 made by Jiaoyubu and Guojia Yuyan Wenzi Gongzuo Weiyuanhui).
 * So, Are 中国社会科学院语言研究所词典编辑室, the editor of 现代汉语词典, and 李行健, the chief editor of 现代汉语规范词典, governmental organizations? No, I don't think so. I think their (现代汉语词典 and 现代汉语规范词典) authority-ness comes from somewhere else, which I don't know exactly what it is. Maybe it's reputation. Voila. Dokurrat (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * 中国社会科学院 do belongs to Guowuyuan though... But I currently did't see how much ability/authority of involving itself into making lingustic regulations it has... Dokurrat (talk) 14:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm still working on the problem. Here's one piece of evidence that could technically mean nothing. A test-prep book prepared by the 国家语言文字工作委员会普通话培训测试中心 and published by the Commercial Press in 2004 includes a list of 10,460 Chinese words with their pinyin spellings that are explicitly derived from the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian. Further, the whole -can be qingsheng or can be the original tone- thing, to me a mark of the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, is included in the book at all times, whereas Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian seems to avoid allowing for two pronunciations for one meaning. It was from this foundation, combined with the fact that all my teachers recommended the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, that I made the leap that Xiandai Hanyu Cidian might be or might have been authoritative. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:52, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's another systematic difference between the two dictionaries that I just realized: when Xiandai Hanyu Cidian Ed 7 gives pinyin for a character describing a proper noun, the pinyin starts with a capital letter. But in Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian Ed 2 & Ed 3, there are seemingly no capital letters in pinyin. Examples: 巴 Bā XDHYCD Ed 7 pg 17; XDHYGFCD bā Ed 3 pg 16 (Ed 2 pg 16). If this non-capitalization extends to geographical terms, then XDHYGFCD Ed 3 may potentially conflict with Zhengcifa:《汉语拼音正词法基本规则》6.2.2.1条.2012. pp.8. 汉语地名中的专名和通名,分写,每一分写部分的首字母大写. (I don't have convenient access to a full copy of either XDHYGFCD Ed 2 or Ed 3 yet.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I got my copy of the XDHYGFCD Ed 3 (2014). The XDHYGFCD seemingly doesn't capitalize the first letter of the Hanyu Pinyin for place names. Example: XDHYGFCD Ed 3 page 1317 洪洞 hóngtóng (whereas XDHYCD Ed 7 page 1315 洪洞 Hóngtóng) Talk:洪洞. I conclude that they seem to be pointedly not capitalizing stuff- let me know if you want more examples. Pointing out the obvious, the XDHYGFCD Ed 3 does it differently from the way the automatic settings on Wiktionary work: Wiktionary automatically capitalizes the first letter in the pinyin for all proper noun entries. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * As a person whose account is called 'Geographyinitiative', you can imagine that this is something I am interested in: should the proper noun entries with capitalized Mandarin hanyu pinyin be written with the lowercase letter instead? Is there some "guifan" out there that says it should be that way? Should the capitalization to the Mandarin pinyin here (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=劉集&diff=49336783) be reversed? idk bro --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:21, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * We're following 正词法 on capitalization generally speaking, but there may be some discrepancies. Obvious proper nouns (like place names) are generally capitalized. Editors are a bit inconsistent when dealing with things like language names; most editors are not that concerned about this. One thing to note is that we generally do not (re)capitalize if the word can be a common noun or a proper noun depending on context. These are just orthographic rules, and we are not as rigid about that. What's important is which pronunciation is the standard in Mainland China. From your evidence, it does seem like 现汉 is generally more accepted. I'd also like to know if HSK uses 现汉 for its pronunciation standard. What's weird to me is that there isn't an absolute authority on pronunciation of words, which would make it ambiguous when promoting standard Chinese. If we do take one of the two dictionaries as the standard, how should we deal with the pronunciations that differ between the two? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 20:49, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Lots to say. According to my memory, the pinyin I have seen given for the HSK vocabulary lists uses the xianhan pronunciation for 嗯 which is ng. The xianhan guitar pronunciation is eng. Ping me and I will send link later. There are six main differences between the xianhan and xianhan guifan that I have noticed so far 1 slightly different definitions 2 different example sentences 3 different handling of qingsheng 4 completely different pronunciations of some yuqici 5 no bopomofo zhuyin 6 no capital letters in pinyin Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:23, 20 April 2018 (UTC) Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:23, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

http://chinesetest.cn/userfiles/file/HSK/HSK-2012.xls

http://chinesetest.cn/godownload.do

Xiandai Hanyu Cidian vs. Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian: 嗯
 * On the '新HSK（六级）（5000）'page of the '新汉语水平考试（HSK）词汇（2012年修订版）' ('HSK-2012.xls') spreadsheet provided at http://chinesetest.cn/godownload.do, the character 嗯 follows 能源 (néngyuán) and is followed by 拟定 (nǐdìng).
 * This could only be the case if the pinyin used in alphabetizing the list was based on a standard in which 嗯 was to be read as 'ng'.
 * The 现代汉语规范词典第二版 (from 2010) page 348 and the 现代汉语规范词典第三版 (from 2014) page 348 gives the readings éng, ěng, and èng for the character 嗯. There is no indication given that there are other readings.
 * 现代汉语规范词典第三版 (from 2014) page 955 does not have any characters listed with a pronunciation 'ng'. Further, 嗯 is not found among the characters with the pronunciation 'en' on page 348, and page 939 does not have any characters listed with a pronunciation 'n'.
 * I only have 现代汉语规范词典第二版 (from 2010) to page 889. 嗯 is not found among the characters with the pronunciation 'en' on page 348.
 * The 现代汉语词典第五版 (from 2005) pages 990-991 (and page 974), the 现代汉语词典第六版 (from 2012) page 942 (and page 926) and the 现代汉语词典第六版 (from 2016) page 947 (and page 931) give 嗯 six pronunciations: ńg, ń, ňg, ň, ǹg, and ǹ.
 * These six pronunciations are also found on page 1653 of 辞海第六版(from 2009). 嗯 is not found among the characters with the pronunciation 'en' on pages 537-539, and page 539 does not have any characters listed with a pronunciation 'eng'. Page 1623 does not have any characters listed with a pronunciation 'n'.
 * The 普通话异读词审因表 and it's 初稿s seem not to explicitly touch on the pronunciation of 嗯.
 * The 现代汉语词典第五版 (from 2005) pages 358-9, the 现代汉语词典第六版 (from 2012) page 342 and the 现代汉语词典第六版 (from 2016) page 343 don't have 嗯 listed among the characters pronounced 'en' or 'eng'.
 * Therefore, at least in the case of 嗯, the HSK vocabulary list did not follow the pinyin given in the 现代汉语规范词典 and did follow the pinyin given in a standard that is consistent with 现代汉语词典 and 辞海. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:56, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The above analysis was part of an attempt to find out "if HSK uses 现汉 for its pronunciation standard." I think there may be a printed list out there somewhere with the characters and the matching pinyin. I have seen such a list for the BCT Business Chinese Test- it was in the back of a book that had one model test of the BCT.
 * "What's weird to me is that there isn't an absolute authority on pronunciation of words, which would make it ambiguous when promoting standard Chinese." I just think it's a complex problem.
 * "If we do take one of the two dictionaries as the standard, how should we deal with the pronunciations that differ between the two?" I would say add all variant pronunciations and then add on detailed notes. In the case of 嗯, I count 13 pronunciations: ńg, ń, ňg, ň, ǹg, ǹ, éng, ěng, èng, én, ěn, èn and en. I would say add them all with clear usage notes etc and then let the reader sort it out. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:06, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

if it's in Hanyu Da Cidian). I'm not aware of any other way of automatically adding to the compounds/derived terms list. Maybe we can have a bot that does this, ? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * BTW, you can bring this to WT:Beer parlour, which is for discussing issues that matter across entries. WT:Tea room is for individual words. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:26, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * About Pleco, I'm not so sure about that. Wiktionary is constantly updating, so unless Pleco keeps updating with weekly dumps or something, it's gonna be outdated very quickly. Also, editors probably won't be able to edit content on Pleco, which doesn't have that kind of functionality yet AFAIK. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * This is partially (multisyllables) tracked here: Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:tracking/zh-forms/compounds not mentioned in derived terms on the component pages. I haven't done content parsing with the bot using Pywikipedia before, so I'm not quite sure; a less intelligent method is to extract all the compound and derived info and analyse from those data pages. Another way is a js-based gadget that detects and automatically adds (upon click) the 詞 to its component page(s). Wyang (talk) 02:52, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * : Hi. It would be great if Pleco included other Chinese lects as well. It only features Mandarin and Cantonese at the moment. Some topolects have a pretty good coverage at Wiktionary now. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your responses. Basically what I'm wanting is not even close to possible yet. I will save these responses and think about it. Sorry for wasting your time --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Zhuang and Bouyei
Hey there. It's awesome to see that you're so active in Zhuang and Bouyei.

You caught me mid-edit on the Zhuang chopstick entry. I was just fixing the formatting for the etym section and adding an attention template when I got the conflict message. But you were already there fixing it!

Should I flag all my new Zhuang entries with the attention template or will you find them anyway?

I'm also very interested in Chinese minority languages. And I'm interested in Tai-Kadai languages. I've travelled in Zhuang areas of China but without meeting any speakers. I did meet one Bouyei speaker working in a backpacker hostel in Nanning. I've also been in the Bouyei area of Vietnam but also without meeting any speakers.

I didn't find any Zhuang or Bouyei dictionaries when I was in China but I did buy two Lue dictionaries in Xishuangbanna.

I'm no expert though which is why I mostly only make stub entries. I speak very basic tourist survival Thai and Lao.

By the way, I've added lots of translation requests for Zhuang. Mostly for core vocabulary or words where the Thai and Lao words are different.

Great work. See you around. Pop gun mai! &mdash; hippietrail (talk) 22:58, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Haha, I'm no expert either, but there are some good resources online for Zhuang, like Sawloih Cuengh-Gun and the Translation Bureau's Zhuang dictionaries. I've also found a copy of 布依汉词典, a decent dictionary for Bouyei, as well as the Zhuang–Chinese–English Dictionary, a useful dictionary for standard Zhuang. If you're unsure about entries, go ahead and flag them with the attention template so that I don't miss anything. We're definitely missing lots of good stuff for Zhuang and Bouyei here, so I'm glad you're interested in them as well. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 23:09, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

挑剔 (Pinyin): tiāoti, tiāotī, tiāotì
The tiāotì reading is labelled as a 'common misreading'.

(Standard Chinese, common misreading)+

Pinyin: tiāotì

Isn't it better to say 'common variant reading' or maybe 'common variant reading, considered as a misreading' or something else? idk

xiandai hanyu guifan cidian ed 3 pg 1287 specifically says that tì is a misreading: "不读tí或tì. "

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

moved to Tea house (more appropriate venue for this kind of question) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:42, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

瓯海
Hello again! The page for the simplified version of Ouhai currently looks like this:

For pronunciation and definitions of 瓯海 – see 甌海 (“[[w:Ouhai District”).

This is wrong: it should look like this:

For pronunciation and definitions of 瓯海 – see 甌海 (“Ouhai”).

How can I achieve this result? I don't know where to look or who to ask, and last time I asked at the tea room, it was you who responded anyway. I can't imagine what the code to achieve the correct result would be. Thanks for any help! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:06, 27 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Technically you can ask at WT:Grease pit, but or  may be able to help. It has to do with this   capture pattern not allowing , but I don't know a good way to fix it. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 14:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * What about having the  function only replace template names like   to   and creating the helper templates like  to extract the appropriate parameters? (Hadn't tried this before, though.) --Dine2016 (talk) 15:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Fixed it. (Templates cannot be invoked in modules either, if their parameters are unknown, AFAIK.) Wyang (talk) 00:39, 28 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Okay. I will remember that you have to write it like |t= --Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:09, 28 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Hello again--- on the 仓 page, a similar type of problem is popping up which I don't know how to solve:


 * "For pronunciation and definitions of 仓 – see 倉 (“granary; tr=-; etc.”)."


 * should be something like "For pronunciation and definitions of 仓 – see 倉 (“granary; etc.”)." --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:40, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Hubei
The reason I added the abbreviation to the Wenzhou Etymology section was because Hubei's Etymology section mentions 鄂. Should 鄂 be deleted from Hubei's Etymology section? (I have no opinion either way.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:30, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be. It's entirely irrelevant in the etymology section. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 04:31, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

The relationship between 燉 and 炖
Hey- in the past day, I've already run into two situations which were somewhat similar to the relationship between 燉 and 炖: the relationship 瞅 and 𥄨 as well as with the relationship between 答 and 荅 (where the first character of the two is the guifan hanzi and the second character is simultaneously an yitizi and an erjianzi). Is there a way to modify the wording that allowed for a mention of the second round simplification on the 瞅 and 答 pages so that the second round simplification can be mentioned on the 燉 and 炖 pages? From my perspective, I've already done like fifty second round simplifications based on this list (except for 部 and 矗- see talk pages), and to not add the information about the second round simplification to the 燉 and 炖 pages seems extremely unsystematic. I don't really know exactly what would be a good solution here. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:50, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Proof 炖 was selected as the simplified form of 燉 in the second round: on page 2 near the middle of the second column from the left of the （1）不作简化偏旁的简化字 part of the 第一表 list in the, you can see the character 炖 paired with 燉 (the characters are ordered in alphabetical order by Mandarin Pinyin). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:57, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not really sure, but I think mentioning it as simplified would be enough. I think it's one of the 二簡字 that were kept., any thoughts? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 04:07, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Here's another overlapping situation situation that I just dealt with: 憤 and 忿. An 二简字 and a 通假字 --Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:26, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. I think, for 燉-炖 case, I may go like this:

燉 was officially simplified as 炖 in. Although this regulation is not official anymore, 燉 of cooking senses is virtually de facto unused in simp. Chinese.


 * Dokurrat (talk) 06:41, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this is probably a good solution. It's easier to explain the situation with a usage note. However, the explanation can be reworked. The current standard 通用规范汉字表 doesn't recognize 炖 as a simplification of 燉 but implies that 炖 is the standard form. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 06:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Well, Maybe just add your last sentense you just said to it would be fine. Dokurrat (talk) 06:51, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * No problems here. I will go try it right now. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * 橘-桔 is another situation similar *but different from* the 燉-炖 case- I made some attempted edits to the relevant pages based on the 燉-炖 changes. Let me know what you think. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:35, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

吾
This character is often mispronounced wǔ right? If so we should probably include this variant pronunciation. We do include shǐ for 室, among others. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 14:51, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't really know if it's common enough. 现代汉语规范词典 does proscribe wǔ, which may imply that some people read it as such, probably due to 有边读边; it also proscribes shǐ for 室. Shǐ for 室 is documented in 汉语方音字汇 for Beijing, so it seems legit (for lack of a better word) to include it; 汉语方音字汇 doesn't have info on 吾., what do you guys think? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 15:00, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't have access to Google right now, if I did I'd search the pinyin on Google Books. I think you might get some hits, especially in older texts. The book I'm reading now about 古義 and 今義 lists the pinyin of 支吾 as zhīwǔ, and I've always thought 吾 was read as wǔ, though that means very little. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 15:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Reply Justinrleung: I don't know, as I personally haven't encountered wǔ for 吾, if my memory is reliable. Dokurrat (talk) 23:34, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Likewise, I haven't heard wu3 before either, including in 支吾. The similar 悟 in 孫悟空 is mispronounced by most people as third tone, though. Wyang (talk) 04:26, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * On an unrelated note, I hear 血 pronounced as "xue3" often, when in fact the 新华字典 only has "xie3" or "xue4". Do you happen to know which pronunciation is most common? Johnny Shiz (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure, but xue3 is definitely common enough to be included - in fact it's been included for a long time. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 20:16, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I know it's included. However I would like to know which of the three pronunciations are most common.
 * Seems like xue3 is the most common in compounds. See the answer by MoonLight.Q here. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 20:23, 15 May 2018 (UTC) — justin(r)leung { (t...) 20:23, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

沒有; etc
Hello again: I recently added the tl=y to one of the pronunciations of 沒有, meaning that on page 866 of Xiandai Hanyu Cidian Ed 7 (and shiyongben, 5, & 6), 没有 is given the pronunciation méi•yǒu. At the same time, the on the 國語辭典 page, 沒有 is given the pronunciation ㄇㄟˊ　ㄧㄡˇ (http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cgi-bin/cbdic/gsweb.cgi?ccd=Wr6yV4&o=e0&sec=sec1&op=v&view=0-1). Therefore, I split the pronunciations into two- méiyǒu,tl=y 1nb=standard in Mainland and méiyǒu for 2nb=standard in Taiwan. My fear is, this edit looks goofy and very likely will be edited away at some point by someone who sees no difference between méi•yǒu and ㄇㄟˊ　ㄧㄡˇ and that other editors (possibly including yourself) will support the change because at first glance, the Pronunciation box on the 沒有 page looks so awkward:

Mandarin

(Pinyin): méiyǒu, méiyǒu

(Zhuyin): ㄇㄟˊ ㄧㄡˇ, ㄇㄟˊ ㄧㄡˇ

Is there anyway to hint to readers that the first méiyǒu may be a little different from the second méiyǒu? What do you think of the whole tl=y situation overall? Also, are there any other specific things that I have done that you are still somewhat dissatisfied with? Thanks. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:11, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's necessary to split it like that. The tl=y is there because it's an optional toneless variant. In the Taiwanese standard, there is no 重次輕 type of thing, and in real life, the Taiwanese rarely use the toneless variant. We can just have  and that should be fine. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 01:17, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, makes sense, I will try to do other similar 重次輕 words I encounter in this way too. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:47, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Cancer
I have added some interesting information for readers, including a reference, about the change in the pronunciation of 癌. If this is good formatting, I will work on doing all the characters in all the 审音表 lists in this manner over the course of the coming months. (Also, I implemented the change you thougt best to the 没有 page. I'm not 100% happy with it, but it's okay by me.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:25, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It looks good at 癌, but what do you mean by "all the characters in all the 审音表 lists"? I don't think all the characters need this information. Can you give me some examples of the characters that would be treated similarly? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 05:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's an example of one that I just did: 斂.    --There were three lists: one in 1957, one in 1959 and one in 1962. In 1985, the three lists were unified and changed slightly. In 2016, a new list based on the 1985 list came out with small changes. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:26, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * What was the pronunciation before liǎn? Was it liàn? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 01:23, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I can't be certain whether it had a different pronunciation before that list- it's slightly beyond the realm of things I know how to check at this point. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If we don't know what the pronunciation was, how can we say it "changed"? That's why I was worried about putting this kind of information for every character in all the 审音表 lists. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I thought that since Taiwan has lian4 as the reading, it might be interesting to understand some of the underpinnings of the lian3 pronunciation. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, both readings are not unexpected given the two pronunciations given in Guangyun. Taiwan's pronunciation isn't necessarily the "original" reading, so I don't really know why you bring up the Taiwanese reading. Taiwan has its own pronunciation standardization (國語一字多音審訂表), too. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Never heard of it! I wish that there were a dictionary that would tell you where the 國語一字多音審訂表 AND the mainland shenyinbiaos carried out shenyin. That's kind of what I'm getting at here. But I understand that adding this info may be seen as clutter or too tangential. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:41, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's 中華語文大辭典 (aka 兩岸詞典), but sometimes it gets the pronunciations wrong, especially for words with qingsheng. It's nevertheless still useful as a reference. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 03:47, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I found that list you mentioned. Very cool.  Yeah- I use the 兩岸詞典 dictionary in Pleco. My idea is: let the readers of this dictionary know more about the specifics of the shenyin that has been carried out: let them know about the different shenyin that have been carried out. That would make this dictionary even better than the 兩岸詞典, which just tells you the opinion they have about the difference between the two standards rather than telling you about the shenyin lists. Let readers know about the instances of the shenyin. Could be cool. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've removed the entire etymology section at 斂 for now. Firstly, it's not really an etymology but a bit of the history of the character's standard pronunciation. However, since these standards are not everything - these pronunciations must have existed before these standards came out. From what I can see, this character's history isn't really all that interesting; it's just that the two ministries of education chose different pronunciations. IMO, I think we probably just need to set up an about page for Mandarin that would list the standards we are basing our labels on. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:11, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, 國語一字多音審訂表(初稿) is not yet official. The current standard is still 國語一字多音審訂表 from ROC 88 (1999). That's why what you wrote was highly misleading. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I totally understand your concerns and revert. I apologize about the misleading edits to 敛- at present, I don't understand the subject well enough to make contributions in that area. "IMO, I think we probably just need to set up an about page for Mandarin"--- that would be interesting to me. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:22, 7 May 2018 (UTC)