User talk:Nemzag/Etimo

Mir‑dita / Hi, I ad‑ded the phonetic for Gheg & Tosk variant, I use for Tosk be‑cause this sound come from the front of the mouth, and  for Gheg be‑cause in this dia‑lect the sound come from the back of palate (soft), us Shqyptar Gheg we use Ϙ ق  & Κ ك, but lot of peoples can't make the dif‑ference.

Here are some example : I'm living in Belgium, and here they use the French sound only so I can make the dif‑ference with the Gheg K  sound of my languages & dialects from Skopje (father) & Kosovo (mother). Be‑cause I have learn Arabic, I can make the dif‑ference be‑tween these two sound &. The sound K of Gheg Shqyptar look more like. The pro‑blem & error come from Greek alpha‑beta, be‑cause they re‑moved the letter Koppa Ϙ and us, Shqyptart, we loosed that letter in our alpha‑beta, we have a Q but we read it and in our land K can be readed  be‑cause words from Turkish or Arabic (using Ϙ/ق) that we have in Shqyp and in Shkup are writed only with letter K that which there‑fore have two value  &. We need to dis‑tinguish these two letters & sounds. I also ad‑ded dif‑ferent vowels since in Gheg the A of Kalb is pro‑nounced ... Mangêzd (talk) 07:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * kurban from arabic &
 * ket/Krejt (all) & kêt (this).
 * Sound of con‑sonants
 * Sound of vowels


 * Hi, Tosk k is not automatically Gheg q for all words, most of the cases they are spelled k the same, Tosk kalb is the same in Gheg kalb..there are cases of k-q parallelism though, but they have to be analysed separately. Loanwords from Turkish (also Arabic words) beginning with k are rendered q in Albanian (koefte-qofte, kebab-qebab etc). The further palatalization of q into ç is a Gheg phenomenon and has nothing to do with Greek (or Turkish or Arabic for that matter)! Etimo (talk) 20:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't say that K is auto‑matically a [q] in Gheg but in some case the Ghegs pro‑nounce the K from the back of the palate, and is a [q], this sound ex‑ist like the nasal that Tosk don't use... I agree with you that lot of Arabic / Turkish word using K [k] & Q [q] are trans‑formed to [c] but no all of them, but for me that is not normal, and those (a‑theist writers) who made these falsi‑fications just want to di‑vide the mu‑slims from under‑standing each others by con‑fusing their common words (lot of words from the Ottoman era (Arabic, Altaic & Persian) that we still use in Macedonia & Kosova are not in the standard Albanian dictionary and were re‑moved during com‑munist time, but in that sup‑posed Illyrian root based dictionary you can find lot of new ad‑ded words from "Greek / Ortho‑dox" & "Latin / Cath‑olic", why this hypo‑crisy against the i‑slamic culture ? Why to re‑ject it in our language)... I also noticed that in Tosk the Gheg P is often changed to MB, in mod‑ern Greek ΜΠ is [b], it seem that the Shqiptar Orthodox (from the south of Albania & north of Greece) have chosen to make P [p] to ΜΜΠ/ΜΒ [mb] (pruj mbroj (rujtar) ; prapa mbrapa ; prãmë mbrëmë ; shtremoj shtrembëroj). The Toskërisht change : I'm a Shqyptar Shkupjan Gheg and truly I don't like to learn & use the standard Shqip based on Tosk for me this language is a total falsi‑fication of our ancient words & my origin. I'm very sad that in Kosovo they beginned to use the standard in Tele‑vision & media, this is a re‑jection of the Gheg root that we have... I don't want our di‑stinctive dia‑lect to dis‑ap‑pear. I don't under‑stand that, when they made and im‑posed the standard in 1969, they don't used the two variants for each words at same time, but only the Tosk one (read this)... Une foli Gegnisht e jam i knaqt se e foli qat guh e vjetër... Still I want to thank you be‑cause I noticed that when you ad‑d Albanian words, most of the time you ad‑d the Gheg variant to, and that is demo‑cratic & re‑spect‑full... Mangêzd (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * K to NG (kadal ngadal ; ka nga)
 * G to NG (garkoj ngarkoj from carr‧us)
 * K [k/q] to Q [c] (käjt Qajt ; kenef qenef ; koft qoft ; kebap qebap)
 * M to MB (mas mbas ; myt mbyt ; mrãm‧je mbrëm‧je)
 * P to MB (pruj mbroj ; prãm mbrëm‧ë ; mbret from im‑per‧at‧or)
 * N to ND (nër ndër ; ner‧oj nder‧oj ; kn‧oj kënd‧oj ; shn‧et shënd‧et from SANITAS ; as‑doni‑here as‑ndonjë‑here)
 * Ë is added at the end of lot of words or in middle (kput këput ; Zot Zotë ; ms‧oj mës‧oj ; burr burrë) in French Ë (euh  is the sound that they make when they don't know some‑thing, for me it is the sound of cow, the sound of dumb‑ness, that the Standard/Tosks heavily uses, the Ghegs don't use it much, but Ghegs uses the nazal Ã  sound of the mule / ass, animal who generally is very stubborn, ob‑stinate & ob‑durate...
 * ‑VE to ‑ËVE (aristo‑kratikve aristo‑kratikëve)
 * UN/ËN to UR (pasuni pasuri ; rujtën rujtun rujtur ; dashuri dashuni ; rrezitun rrezitur ; ‑UR is fire in Latin UR‧Ô (UaR → WaR → gUaRra / gUeRro ; fURno), English bURning, Arabic  & Hebrew  (OR/AVR is light  & UR  is fire), ‑UR is a very bad ending)
 * D to VD (deka vdeka)
 * ‑OJA to ‑ONJA (shqypoja, shqyponja ; zoja zonja)
 * US me UES (ms‧us mës‧ues, re‑ag‧us re‑ag‧ues)
 * UJ me UAJ (gruja gruaja ; rujtun ruajtur)
 * Y to I (hyp hip ; hina hyra ; Shqypni Shqipëri) {be‑cause of mod‑ern Greek pro‑nunciation of ypsilon be‑coming ipsilon}
 * Ê to I {be‑cause of Hêta be‑coming Hita : Tem Tim ; Jêmja Im}
 * Tosks change the end of word with N with R (femën femër from FEMINA ; zotni zotëri, botnor botror botëror ; burrni burrëri ; bërë banë ; an‑mik ar‑mik from IN‑IMIC‧US...


 * I don't think I understand correctly the point you're trying to make. Standard Albanian (or even Albanian etymologies in itself) are not based on religious considerations, this matter has nothing to do AT ALL with linguistics, contrary to what you're trying to insinuate. Foreign words, be it Ottoman, Arabic, Italian or German, are identified as such, as foreign, period. If this hurts your religious sensibilities, that's your problem, but they are not Albanian words, and this is a linguitic issue, not a religious one. If Greek or Latin words have been added, they are words from various fields (science, physics, bio‑logy, medicine etc) used in almost all European languages. No such words have been left in Albanian from Arabic or Ottoman Turkish (you shouldn't lump them together in Islamic culture, be more specific), at least not in the degree comparable to Greek and Latin to have an influence on Albanian language. It has nothing to do with hypocrisy. If you're trying to insinuate that Albanian identity (or language) is some kind bound to Islam just because of the long Ottoman dominion, then you have absolutely no clue of Albanian history, identity or language (I'm sorry to hear that mass islamization of Albanians in Kossovo and Macedonia is still a sad issue of national identity). Finally, adding Gheg Albanian variants is not a matter of respect, it has more to do with history (Gheg Albanian has the most ancient literature and would have been standard Albanian if were not for the Communist regime who made Tosk Albanian the official language), thus it goes without saying that the Gheg variant of a word must be indicated. I strongly advise you to study more the history of the Albanian people and language (and leave religion alone), because this is where you'll find all the answers you need. Etimo (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Ad‑ding more words in our languages is a rich‑ness, if you look English : is made of old Germanic, Celtic, Saxon, Latin, ancient Greek, Scandinave, French... So why re‑jecting or de‑forming i‑slamic, Persian or Altaic words, we can use them to en‑rich our cultures and to ex‑press our‑selfs in a more varied way... You say Latin & Greek were ad‑ded be‑cause of sciences, biology, medicine & physics, but in Turkey, Iran (Persia) or in Arabic states they have sciences in‑stitutes (and the Arabian medecine is well known) but I'm not sure they need Latins or Greeks words for their dis‑coveries or to de‑scribe them, like those Albanian ad‑ded... I'm truly Albanian but I don't re‑ject the i‑slamic culture and for me those who are mu‑slims are truly Albanian (and i‑slam is a part of Gheg identity that started since Christianity be‑cause the pro‑phets of the Holy Coran are the same than the Torah and even the archaic albanian believed in one zot), I don't see the Ottoman era with a bad point of view like you, for me they were con‑querer like Bulgarian, Byzantine, Mongol {becoming the Ottoman after con‑version to i‑slam}, Roman, Shellênic, (Persian) empire was at their time, all of them have in‑vaded Illyria and im‑posed their languages & be‑lieve, so for me they are all on same level, why ac‑cepting the Roman & Greek cultures (architectures, icons, arts, statues, nudity) and re‑jecting the Altaic, Persian & Arabic/Hebrew/Semitic, it is just hypo‑crisy for me... I have lot of Turkish, Maghreban, Italian friends and I never had pro‑blem with them... Re‑jecting the re‑ligion is typically the com‑munist era way of thinking... Lot of Albanian after first world war fled to Turkey to save their live and they still live there in peace and under protection of the Turks, so no for me the Ottoman were not bad as are the Serbians...

I'm happy to ear that Gheg is older and that is the reason why you ad‑d it, I have read some article about that, but I can't find the older book in archive.org, and even if I find it, it would be hard to de‑cipher be‑cause of the style of the script... For Albanian words I would like to have in "Alternative Forms" the Arvanitic in Greek, the Gheg, the Tosk, the Elbasan version using Elbasan Unicode script, the Ottoman era Arabic script version & the Cyrillic variant at the time of Bulgarian Em‑pire, that would be great and very pre‑cise... You say that re‑ligion is not im‑portant in linguistic but I'm sure that those who made the falsi‑fications in Albanian, do that with an anti‑re‑ligious mind... Mangêzd (talk) 20:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * This is not the place where to debate religious or political matters, especially when it comes to the role of Islam in modern Albanian politics, which is highly controversive. As a researcher of Albanian language and history, I have my own views on the matter which are exactly opposite to yours. Unfortunately, I have met many Albanians who have a quite distorted view of Albanian history, identity and language because they filter it through their religious identity, and this is especially true with Islam. I'm really sorry to assert that the long Ottoman rule have left such scars in Albanian national identity..I will answer to your questions, but I won't continue this debate any further, since this is an etymological dictionary, not a forum where to debate religion. First of all: you CANNOT put the impact of Latin and Greek culture on Albanian on same level with the Ottoman one. Latin and Greek culture are THE BASIS of 2000 years of European culture and identity, and you cannot in any way compare those with the Ottoman tyranny on the Balkans who did absolutely NOTHING to enhance the culture and the spirit of the dominated people. The Ottoman dominion on the Albanian people was of the most vicious kind, as it attempted to delete the European identity of the Albanian people and substitute it with an islamic one for merely political and military reasons (something they achieved with success for large swaths of the population, and continue to do). Ottomans didn't try to educate Albanians, foster their urban and cultural development as, for instance, Rome did, Albanians were enemies, infedels, who led the most stubborn resistence, and were always treated as such. Once they were conquered even the Albanian language itself was forbidden, so what kind of culture could you learn or spread if you're not even allowed to teach your own language? At the end of the Ottoman rule, Albania resembled more a modern post-war Afghan village, with almost 95% of illiteracy, a data enough to make you understand how wrong it is to indulge in historical revisionism moved by religious motives. Contrary to what you declare, it clearly shows that you identify yourself first of all as a mu‑slim, then as an Albanian (proving my point). Albanians are EUROPEANS in language, culture and ethnicity, and just like any other European nation they embrace and have always embraced their European culture and traditions, and this is not a matter of opion, it's a fact, a reality! 300 years of Ottoman islam cannot change that! Finally, you cannot compare the role of Islam with that of Christianity in the history of Albania or the Balkans. Gheg Albanians are and have always been Catholics, like the Arberesh people are orthodox, and the islamic identity you talk about came very late to have any historical weight. Islam was never an apostolic religion in the Balkans (like Christianity), and it was never digested by the cultures it came in contact with. It is an accepted fact by all mainstream scholars that islam got a foothold among Albanians only between the 17th and 18th century because of social and economic reasons, not because of spontaneous conversion (how can you spontaneously convert to the religion of an occupier??). So, that said, I renew my invitation to you to put aside religion when analysing the history of a people, and judge things dispassionately, otherwise you're just taking sides, the side of those who have always used religion to advance their own agenda, and you're simply playing their game.Etimo (talk) 22:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I think in con‑trary that it is the per‑fect place to do it, since I meet you here, and since we are talking about Albanians terms re‑moved, ad‑ded, de‑formed or falsi‑fied...

The Roman Em‑pire was made of op‑pression, tax, cruci‑fixion, torture, crushing, per‑versity, slavery and circus game, the Semitic be‑lieve (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arab) have bring to them the com‑passion, forgive‑ness, love of the neighbor, altruism, Moses laws & Messianic Christianity, and the be‑lieve in one unique god re‑veled by the pro‑phets, if you re‑ject that and say that the only the Roman or Greek have made the basis of Evr‑ope you are lying, I'm sure that the German, Polish, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish & Slavic (ex‑cept Russian) use very little Latin words in their languages (and they are very ad‑vanced)... Only France, England, Italy, Spain, Romania, Albania, Portugal (and their colonies) are really using it, but if you are a real Shqyptar, then you will pre‑fer to use our unique word from the Illyrian / Thracian era, than those of Roman or Greeks (so it is why I don't under‑stand why in our time lot of new Latin & Greek word were ad‑ded in Standard Shqip & the Ottoman one re‑moved in the of‑ficial dictionary)...

I love the faith and I be‑lieve in one God, and I re‑spect the Altaic, Semitic, Persian, Bulgarian culture, I don't re‑ject it and in Shkup we still use their words, like the Greek or Latin one... And that is all...

You say "Con‑trary to what you de‑clare, it clearly shows that you identi‑fy your‑self first of all as a mu‑slim, then as an as an Albanian (proving my point)", well at home I speak Shqyp and all my family is Arbanian, and some of them, have grown in the com‑munist era so they don't like any re‑ligions at all... I don't speak semitic Arab/Hebrew (I just know some words) or Turkish (but my mother, grand‑mothers & grand‑fathers knowned it living in Ottoman Em‑pire), but yes I'm a be‑liever, and God is up‑on any nationality... But that doesn't change nothing, about my origins, I'm really an Shqyptar, and even if you are an a‑theist or a Christian ortho‑dox or cath‑olics that doesn't make you a more real Shqyptarian, Arbanian, Albanian or Illyrian than me, be‑cause at the origin they were probably poly‑theist... The pro‑blem is how you de‑fine an Illyrian (-800 BC), an Albanian (150 AD), an Arbanian / Arvanian / Arbarian (1190 AD), an Shqyptar (1700 AD), an Gheg & an Tosk... Being an Gheg Shqyptar bring to me 10.000.000 of com‑patriot, being a be‑liever bring to me 3.000.000.000 of brothers & sisters in the faiths sharing com‑mon value & one unique & same God, be‑cause i‑slam con‑sider the Jehudi /, Nasari  /  & Mu‑slims as "Peoples of the Book" & brother / sisters in the same unique faith, even if there is some di‑vergence, schism & con‑frontation...

You say that "Ottoman tyranny on the Balkans who did ab‑solutely NOTHING to en‑hance the culture and the spirit of the dominated people" this is un‑true and by saying that you don't under‑stand the purity, morality & the nobility of the faith that they had (and that may‑be they didn't cor‑rectly ap‑plied), and that lot of Gheg share hence‑forth, if you had study this re‑ligion and the mercy, com‑passion, giving value that she have, you will not talk like that, but you seem to not com‑pre‑hend it at all... If they were able to main‑tain their huge em‑pire in Evr‑ope, Middle‑East, North‑Africa 500 years, prove their dominating in‑tel‑ligence, don't forgot that the Ottoman were Turko‑Tataro‑Mongol of the tribes of Genghis Khan, who even had an older Em‑pire started in 1206...

War al‑ways ex‑isted and this no‑body can do nothing about it. The stronger wins (this is the law of jungle) and we Illyrian were weak against the Hellenic Em‑pire, Roman Em‑pire, Bulgarian Em‑pire, Ottoman Em‑pire, that's all, but I don't hate these em‑pire for that, every one have bring some‑thing to us, and I ac‑cept all of them and not re‑ject some of them... But why de‑fending the Romans ? That is some‑thing I don't under‑stand.

You say the Ottoman don't al‑lowed you to speak Shqyp, very strange be‑cause the languages still ex‑ist and even the Gheg mu‑slims still use it (whereas the Tosk have de‑formed & falsi‑fied it even if they were Ortho‑dox or Cath‑olics, so I‑slam & Ottoman as nothing to do in this), Albania was only a little pro‑vince of the Ottoman Em‑pire and I don't be‑lieve that they have forbid the Arabs under their dominion in the middle‑east or Maghreb to not speak & learn their language in private & at home or even the Shqyptar in south‑Evr‑ope (be‑cause they can't con‑trol all of us, all the time, at all locations). The Serbian have forbid the Albanian to speak Shqip at school, uni‑versity & state‑jobs in Kosovo. I'm sure that at the time of Roman & Byzance Em‑pire, the Illyrian were ob‑ligated by force, con‑straint & co‑ercion, to speak Latin/Greek, this is why we still have their word in our mod‑ern language, so don't say the Ottoman were worse than Roman. Even in Africa (& Maghreb), Indo-China, in south‑America & north‑America the native Indian American were forced to speak Portuguese, Spanish, French or English by the colonialists (and I don't talk about the slavery & dis‑criminations that the Christians Cath‑olics & Pro‑testant made there with the Africans & Native Americans until 1964 : Civil Rights Acts & 1954 laws), this is very com‑mon situation that the dominating peoples force the op‑primed to speak their languages, even now the strangers who come to live in America have to speak these languages at works & school, even if they are not their mother‑tongues...
 * Bible - Gospel : Luc 6-41

You say at that time 95% were il‑literate, but I live in Belgium and here (and may‑be even in France) going to school is ob‑ligatory & free by state since maximum 130 years (1870 in USA, 1882 in France, the Ottoman Em‑pire dis‑ap‑peared in 1918), and now in 2015 they are more than 10% of an‑alpha‑beta in the state of capital of Evr‑ope. In the past, from medieval to mod‑ern era, lot of peoples & e‑specially women (that even didn't had the right to vote) were an‑alpha‑beta for most of them (women are 53% of population). All states of Evr‑ope had lot of il‑literate peoples at that time, the peasant class didn't had the money to go to school & uni‑versity (only the nobility had the means), it was a global pro‑blem, the Ottoman have nothing to do in that, the first words of the re‑velation of i‑slam by the Angel is /  IQRA (Read), I'm sorry if you don't under‑stand the power‑full cryptic meaning of that (Al‑Qur'an  /  mean reading or re‑citation, the i‑slam pro‑mote & en‑courage literacy & learning)... In our era, lot of Albanians still pre‑fer to send their kids works with sheeps, on fields or to sell things like cigarettes or chewing‑gum on the street (have seen that with my own eyes), than sending them to school, and the Ottoman are not there any‑more, if they was no state‑law to ob‑ligate the Albanians to send their kids there, they would be many more il‑literates... No they was 95% of an‑alpha‑beta be‑cause they were to poor or lazy and not in‑ter‑ested by any cultures (Semitic, Latin, Greek, Slavic or Germanic)... Also the Evr‑opean culture that you are so proud of, come from middle‑east, the source is Semitic Phoenician & Aramaic Script (e‑volution of proto‑canaanite), that the Greek then Roman taken, the Greek & Latin script come from there and lot of words that you use in Latin / Greek have root from Middle‑Eastern source (Semitic, Egyptian, Caucasian, Mesopotamian, Hindi, Persian)... But there is a con‑spiration from the Western & Eastern Evr‑opean etymo‑logist to hide this verity...

"How can you spontaneously con‑vert to the re‑ligion of an oc‑cupier??" it is very simple in fact, be‑cause it is a faith made up‑on the truth with honorable values, not telling that a man is God ( Shirk, like the Christian say for Iesuo /, that the Jews & Mu‑slims negate) and telling only God should be venered & re‑vered, if it was as bad as you say, they would not be Mu‑slims from far‑east Asia to far‑western U.S.A...

Lot of French, German & Belgian con‑vert to this faith (be‑cause I read it in Belgian papers be‑cause I live here) and no one is oc‑cupying them or forcing them, this happen be‑cause this book follow the Jewish Semitic be‑lieve and com‑plete it, and be‑cause it is purest mono‑theism, with‑out idols, icons, per‑versions & statues that Greek & Latin worshiped in vain... Don't take only as ex‑ample re‑tarded land like Afghani‑stan or land in war like Iraq to dis‑credit the i‑slam, but take good ex‑ample like Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, Qatar, Tunisia, Maroc or Arab‑Emirate, who are very ad‑vanced in their in‑fra‑structure, archi‑tecture, e‑ducation, morality & techno‑logy... I will not talk with you about this any‑more, I see what is your point of view. And I don't share it at all. Mangêzd (talk) 13:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)


 * You're justifying domination and tyranny for your religious reasons..you just seem not to have an historical cultural identity of your own, since you're clinging so desperately to the culture of who invaded and kept your country for 4 centuries..it just comments for itself, I have nothing to add to that!! Etimo (talk) 18:11, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

It is what you think, your identity is on the side of the (Ancient‑Greeks), Romans & Byzantine and they were even worse in their actions, per‑versions & be‑lieves than Ottomans. (The re‑ligion of Ottoman that lot of Shqyptar share, is the semitic one, based on Judaism then Messianism but with‑out Saints, Idols, Icons & Statues of Jesus, Maria, pro‑phets & angels...).

I know very well the Greco‑Latin antique cultures & mytho‑logies (be‑cause I use their terms in Shqyp and I live in Belgium since I'm a baby and here we speak French (Greco‑Gallo‑Franco‑Latin language), I readed some book & dictionary about Ancient‑Greek & Latin and I ana‑lyzed & com‑pared the etymo‑logy & roots of these languages as an auto‑didact and I have take course, also I studied the English and I have seen Spanish & Italian media & peoples in my life to know their customs & traditions)...

But in ad‑dition I have the Semitic, I‑slamic, Jewish, Nasari, Slavic, Persian (Zoroastrism Manicheism Shio'ism ) Hindu/Romi/Ashkali & Ottoman Turkish Altaic (Shamanism Animism) culture in me... I'm cosmo‑polite, like my Macedonian capital Shkupi (Scupi)...

Don't judge me by saying that I have no identity, my identity is Gheg, Evr‑opean, in‑ter‑national, global & multi‑cultural and not auto‑centered only in Tosk‑Arbarian cath‑olistic, ortho‑doxistic or a‑theistic side... You are not an GJYKAC, ΔΙΚΑΙΟΣ, an IUDICIS, an DICTATOR or an HAKIM /  QADI  /  like God is, to judge me. Don't think you are better than me be‑cause you are not a Mu‑slim or a be‑liever, you are not per‑fect & even not just, equitable & fair at all.

You don't know me at all as a person, so keep these use‑less critics about my Shkupjan Gheg identity that you don't know or don't com‑pre‑hend & under‑stand... I'm not re‑sponsible of the actions of these em‑pires (Persian, Greek, Roman, I‑slamic, Byzantine, Bulgarian, Ottoman), I don't com‑mitted their crimes, op‑pressions, wars or abuses. So I don't have to justi‑fy & blame nothing. It is the past, and I'm looking to the future... But I don't like the meth‑odo‑logy of the (ex‑com‑munist) Shqipërija about re‑moving Gheg, Persian, Turkish & Semitic words in the of‑ficial standard, to put some Latin, Greek and Tosk (falsi‑fied & de‑formed Gheg), this is not the true languages & root of Thraco‑Illyrian & old Albania.

In fact Shqipërija (in 1969 & after) choosed to sub‑mit her‑self to his real & ancient neighbors op‑pressors, and Shqipëria choosed to be hypo‑crites against the cultures of Middle‑east (Semito‑Persian) & Asia (Altaico‑Turko‑Mongol). I'm on the side of truth‑full Shqyp‑nia Arbania & Albania, not on the false & fake Shqipërija Arbaria & Albaria...

The Shqipëri & in parti‑cular the Tosks com‑munists rulers made laws to forbid the use of Gheg & even con‑demned & tortured it's own peoples for reading & sharing Ghegs books and for speaking it, by sending them to prisons or may‑be by e‑rasing them... They were even worse than Ottoman for the Ghegs cultures (Read the "Sub‑human" post of 06-22-2014, 05:52 PM)...

But now after the com‑munism per‑secutions & op‑pressions against the religions, there is a re‑vival of the i‑slamic faith in our land, and the Ottoman are not there to force & con‑strain us any‑more, we do that by our own will, just be‑cause we be‑lieve in the Abrahamic re‑velation, Mu‑Ħamed S.A.V.S was not a Turkish... Also the Gheg ex‑dominant e‑lite (from Kosovo, Macedonia & North‑Albania) who lost their supremacy after 1945, are making pressure to ad‑d their terms in standard shqip of the a‑theist com‑munist era... (Look at the re‑form of 2013 of 5296 terms).

About il‑literacy of 95% I'm sure that this statistic is based & calculated only up‑on how many could read the Latin Cath‑olic or Greek Ortho‑dox Script : 90% of an‑alpha‑beta (85% in English Wikipedia), I'm sure that at the time of Ottoman Em‑pire lot of Gheg & Tosk Mu‑slims knew the Ottoman‑Arabic‑script and in a more great pro‑portion, like 30% to 40%. (The Cor'an /  mean reading or re‑citation, the i‑slam pro‑mote & en‑courage literacy & learning)... And Albanians had the right to go to ancient & magni‑ficent city of I‑st‧an‑bul (Côn‑st‧ant‑inou‑polis) in Turkish schools & uni‑versities.

I'm not "clinging so de‑sperately to the culture of who in‑vaded and kept your country for 4 centuries" be‑cause first I still speak Shqyp (but with some Ottoman (Persian, Semitic, Turkish), Slavic words in ex‑tra) and this Semitic (Obritian /   & Orbitian  & ) i‑slamic (Uni‑versal re‑ligions of the Peace : Selam  / )  be‑lieve & cultures is in my country since 2500 years, first by the use of semitic Phoenician Aramaic script (of the Torah) that the ancient‑Greek & Etruscan (Roman) taken to write their own languages. Then by Semitic Aramaic Messianism & Christianity since 1900 years. And the Abraham re‑ligion I have is 4000 years old... I'm not clinging to the culture of the in‑vader who arrived in Albania 1415, this culture is now an in‑tegrated part of Gheg cultures for over 400~300 years and since 2500/1900 years, and when I'm born it was al‑ready my ancestors culture...

Mu‑slims Albanians from Shqyp‑nija (57%, the French Wikipedia say 86,64%, 2,5 millions up‑on a total of 3,1 millions habitants), Kosovo (95%), Macedonia (30%, 25% of total population is Albanian), Monte‑negro (15%, 5% of total population is Albanian), merged together are 80% of all Albanity (and I don't count the Turkish Albanian who are probably at 90% mu‑slims), and we are real Albanians, we speak it and if you want to tell the con‑trary I think you should meditate twice be‑fore saying such think in front of us... In fact peoples like you are the minority of the mod‑ern & actual Albanian cultures. You are not re‑pre‑sentative at all... In fact we are the real Albanians who held the land and did not flee be‑fore the ad‑versary, like the ARBËRESH (they fled to Italia be‑cause they con‑sider them‑self more as Romans & Latins de‑scendants than real Illyrians / Thracian)... In‑deed, we (the real TRIMAT) stayed & keeped our land using the i‑slamic law‑full meth‑od of Taqija  by using & learning our language hidden & in secret...

The Albanians Mu‑slims as a state are an of‑ficial members of Organization of I‑slamic Co‑operation since the end of com‑munism & 1992.

Lot of Albanians have chosen to live in Turkey after the end of Ottoman em‑pire to flee from the per‑secution of the Greeks & Slaves Ortho‑dox after the first world war, and after the second world‑war to flee the eastern Evr‑ope com‑munism that forbid the re‑ligions, if the Ottomans Em‑pire & the demo‑cratic state of Turkey (of Atatürk) were so bad & evil for Albania, why these true Albanians (Tosk & Gheg mu‑slims) have chosen to live there with them ??? If I be‑lieve what I read, they are 3 millions of Albanian in Turkey or 1,3 millions in English wikipedia and in Albanian wikipedia 8.470.954,95 in 1990 = 15% of 56.473.033.

Who say the truth I don't know. But if I be‑lieve what my father say, they are more Albanians in Turkey than in Shqipëri, Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosova, Greece & Italia to‑gether...

In Belgium, I know lot of Albanians who works with Turkish (as patron or em‑ployee) or who are married... We don't have any pro‑blem with them and I love & re‑spect the Turkish, I have lot of Turkish friends, they are honorable & trust‑full, and actually there is no mod‑ern Turkey law that forbid you to speak Shqyp (like the law of 31 May 1779, of Sultan Abdül‑Ħamid First, who punished by death those who speak it in public {but the source of that article is Greek so I'm not sure if it's true, this in‑formation is not in the Albania article of English Wikipedia}), the Turks have e‑volved and are not "tyrannical (I cite you)" against us any‑more... Also this generations is not re‑sponsible of the actions of their pre‑de‑cessors & ancestors.

Even the Serbians, who are more anti‑i‑slam & anti‑Ottoman than you are, be‑cause they even tried in end of the twentieth century to make a geno‑cide against Albanian & Bosnian (and cath‑olic Croatian), to clean the Ottoman & Latin in‑fluence from the self‑called "Slavic Great Serbia", are still using lot of Persian, Arabic & Turkish (Ottoman) terms in the Serbo‑Croatian languages, and even more than the of‑ficial "Standard Shqip" made by the a‑theist Tosk com‑munist team of Enver Hoxha after 1969...

I put them in Chrono‑logical order :
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Proto‑Slavic
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Persian Em‑pire
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Ancient‑Greek Em‑pire
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Latin Em‑pire
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Obritian
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Orbitian
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Ottoman Em‑pire
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from English Em‑pire
 * Serbo‑Croatian terms de‑rived from Turkish

You can com‑pare with the Tosk/Standard Shqip :
 * Albanian terms de‑rived from Illyrian (by using the proto‑albanian theory of Vladimir Orel & Bardhyl Demiraj in Wiktionary, these pseudo‑logists have e‑rased the Illyrian / Thracian roots of our unique words, and actualy only two words are Illyrian
 * Albanian terms de‑rived from Persian Em‑pire
 * Albanian terms de‑rived from Ancient‑Greek Em‑pire
 * Albanian terms de‑rived from Latin Em‑pire
 * Albanian terms de‑rived from Orbitian
 * Albanian terms de‑rived from Ottoman Em‑pire
 * Albanian terms de‑rived from Turkish

The Serbo‑Bosniaco‑Monte‑negro‑Croatians don't re‑ject these languages, they ad‑d them to their mother‑tongue (proto‑slavic) to en‑hance & ex‑pand their way to ex‑press them‑self.

This Serbo‑Croatian (made of lot of) ethnicities was the of‑ficial languages of Yugo‑slavia & of‑ficial languages of actual Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia & Monte‑negro (Macedonia use it to but they have a di‑stinct dia‑lect).

If you know only one terms you can't truly ex‑press your‑self, by ad‑ding terms & words in your vocabulary, you en‑rich your know‑ledge, in‑tel‑ligence & com‑pre‑hension and your possibility to ex‑press your thinking with more pre‑cision, variation & di‑versity. Using these terms is a rich‑ness not a ethnic identity loss.

You are clinging & stagnating to the culture of Greco‑Romano‑Byzantine that in‑vaded your Illyrian Thracian land 2000 years ago...

You al‑ready loosed your Albanian Illyrian / Thracian identity by be‑coming a part of Roman then Byzantine em‑pire and by choosing the name Shqipëri (ana‑gram of S.P.Q.R and homo‑nym of SCIP‧IO & EX‑CIP‧IÔ {SHQIP‧ÔJ}) in‑stead of original Gheg pro‑nunciation : "Shqyp & Shqyp‑ni", look at the ancient Gheg pro‑nunciation of Shqyptar Shqyponj, it is from Ancient‑Greek & mod‑ern Tosk version of Shqipëtar Shqiponja / Skifter from Latin AD‑CIP‧ITER & EX‑CIP‧ERE, there is no link with Illyro‑Thracian cultures any‑more, the AQVILA in our flag is the sym‑bol of Roman and sub‑ordination & sub‑mission to the Roman & Holy Roman/German → GeRoman Em‑pire, even the term Shqyp & Shqyp‑ni have root from SHKUPI and SCUPI (ac‑cording to Petar Skok)... The Shkupjan are the real sources of the mod‑ern Albanian culture... Mangêzd (talk) 01:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Please stop clogging my message page with walls and walls of your personal religious rants..I told you what I think and your answer just further confirms my point of view..you can be whatever you want, a Semite, a neo-Ottoman, Persian or a citizen of the world, and follow whatever religion that pleases you, it's your choice, but as I told you, we have two diammetrically opposed ideas of Albanian history and language and above all, what Albania was/is/and will be...and I'm really not interested in being lectured on history and linguistics. Again, this conversation stops here, thank you!!! Etimo (talk) 18:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I told you what I had to say (this is free‑dom of be‑lieve & ex‑pression Articles 18 & 19 and Talk‑Page are open to any‑one, you made some de‑claration against me so I had to re‑spond)... Mos e ku‑pto keq.

But I must ad‑d this : be‑cause of these re‑ligious rants & reasons and be‑cause they are so many messianists &  & mu-slims  &  in Albanity, I think that the Tosk com‑munist a‑theist rulers who made & pro‑moted the standard (Tosk) in 1969 didn't had the right to re‑move the Semitic com‑mon Obritian  /  & Orbitian  /  terms from Ottoman & Christiano‑Byzantine era in our languages and they didn't had the rights to ab‑olish & sup‑press the Gheg dia‑lect.

After making search about what you said and that I didn't knew, I ad‑mit that the Ottoman rulers were rough with our nation. They didn't ap‑plied & re‑spected the true & real pre‑cepts of i‑slam (peace & paci‑fism) of Mu‑Ħamed S.A.V.S, like :
 * Shêfqêt
 * Raħmêt /
 * Qrêêt /  /  / QRÊÊT‧Ë ("creating, imagining, in‑venting, be‑getting").

Even to‑day there is not a single school in Albanian in Turkey, as my uncle told me yester‑day, whereas there are Turkish schools in Albania (but the Turkish pre‑sident Erdogan want to close them)...

Ottoman Em‑pire pre‑de‑cessors were rough with us to.

Good bye, Tu‑ngät‑jeta, mir‑u‑päfshmi... Mangêzd (talk) 20:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah you did some research now and you're able to answer!! And how objective do you think you are when you talk about things you don't even have a clue about? Can't you see how ridiculous the things you say are? No matter what you say, again, you confirm my point of view (which is also the point of view of every historian): Islam was embraced only through social cohertion and violence and it is absolutely foreign to true Albanian culture and nature and every Albanian who has a minimum of identity and dignity understands that quite easily. Unfortunately Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia, like yourself, have completely lost their Albanian European identity as you all are under the absoulte rule and propaganda of Saudi Arabia and Turkey, who have turned you in obedient soldiers of Islam for their political purposes. It's no surprise that Kosovo and Macedonia have the higher number of jihadist and throat-cutters fighting in Syria compared to their population. The sad thing about Albanians like yourself is that you don't event understand it, you're blind, cause this is everything you've ever known in your life!! You simply don't know true Albanism, you only know an oriental surrogate of it! Instead of trying to rebuild your destroyed Albanian-European identity, traditions and language, you want to keep mixing it, you rejoy of the Ottoman era and religion. That's hopeless and shameful beyond any limit! That's called the philosophy of slavery (Kadare), a person that is afraid of being free because it has forgotten what he was. This kind of person does not deserve freedom, cause he's born a slave and he enjoys it!! I had to answer one last time, your grotesque point of view and deformation of Albanian identity exceeds every possible understanding. Now you know that we have absoultely different point of views, so there's no point in debating any further! Etimo (talk) 14:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Mir‑dita, I only agree with you about the law of Abdül‑hamid First, that's all, (again only French Wikipedia talk about that law, based up‑on an un‑sure Greek source of 14 août 1999, the Wikipedia English & Albanian don't mention that), all my arguments about il‑literacy and other things are real & true.

I'm not sure of what your are talking, it is crap, be‑cause I don't loosed my Albanian Evropean culture since I still use the language of my Gheg ante‑cestor (with Illyrian, Latin, Greek words in‑side) and not the fake one of the Tosk...

For you al‑i‑slam (re‑ligion of peace ) is a re‑gression, you are totally wrong... You make me pity, with your way of thinking... Truly.

This faith and my arguments & ex‑planation are not ridi‑culous...

80% of honorable (neruar) Albanity can be wrong, as I pre‑viously said above (but I written this com‑ment after so maybe you did not read it), we Ghegs mu‑slims /    (mu‑slm mu‑θali) are the real Albanians TRIMAT who stayed & kept the land, not fleeing in Italia by fear of the Otoman   /, be‑cause in fact, these fleeing cowards were more Latins & Romano‑Byzantin than real Illyrian Albanian...

We don't follow the pro‑paganda (as you say) of Orbia Soudia (but only the faith of the Orbitian Angels like GABRI'ÊL & the Meccan MU‑ĦAMED A‑Obudda  /  al‑ile  /, the laudable , the last messenger of Abraham  re‑ligion of the unique God essence and the bringer of the de‑scended book of re‑velation who mean reading / re‑citation. If you knew the history you will know that the Kobah  /  was build by the Orbitian Angels for the first Man Adam as a temple for him, the first KOB‧AH was de‑stroy during the flood at the time of Noah, then Abraham re‑build it and lived in that place... Is re‑lic are kept there. After the temple was de‑stroyed again and re‑builded in his Cubic form that we know today, but that place be‑came a poly‑theist, statues & idols ad‑oration place, then the pro‑phet Mu‑Ħamed came & de‑stroyed these use‑less faith and bringed back the true re‑ligion of Adam & Ibrahim, of the unique ever‑lasting creator of the Uni‑verse... Mecca is a saint place for all be‑liever of the Earth... This is Human origin history. And it is very fascinating not ridi‑culous. Orbia Soudia is a new state and only Mecca & Medina in‑ter‑est the mu‑slims all over the world... Not the politic of that re‑cent state.

If you knew better the i‑slam (re‑ligion of the peace) you will know that Shqypθarθ are Hanafit and not Hanbalite  like Arabia Saudia. We have other laws, practices and phonetic letters pro‑nounciation.

I don't think that Orbians (Saudi, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, Jordan, U.A.E) who are very wealthy by the grace of God in a hope‑less & desertic place (thanks to under‑ground black‑gold oil), need the people from the poorest land in Evrope (since 90 years Ottoman are not there any‑more so the eco‑nomic situation prove the in‑tel‑ligence of the a‑theist Albanians com‑munist rulers & soviet brain‑washed philo‑sopher thinker like Kadare), still the Orbs give us help to build hospitals but us we never gave them any‑thing (look this com‑parative picture from an Albanian pro‑file in FaceBook)...

Do you really think that the Arabs (Orbitians / ) have an hidden agenda (like secret‑societies, as the Il‑luminati) to con‑quer the world, and really need Albanians to do it ??? This is just stupid & moronic. This faith just want to save our souls not the flesh.

Also at the dif‑ference of the cath‑olic & ortho‑dox who have a strict hier‑archic clergy & de‑signed rulers (Pope, Cardinals, Arch‑bishops, bishops, priests, canons, Deacons, Abbots, Monks) the i‑slam don't have this kind of authority and we don't re‑ceive order from any‑body, we are free to make our choice & to choose the mosque & imam, hodja or mullah that we want to follow, and mine are Albanians who studied in Egypt and the other in Makka & Medina... I don't see what pro‑paganda the Arabs are doing in Macedonia, Kosovo or Albania media... The Saint Coran was written in 647.

Also you seem to forgot that Ottoman (con‑verted Turko‑Mongol) ruled the Arabs to... I don't know why now you speak against the Arabians, since they didn't in‑vade us and never threat & mal‑treated our peoples. You seem to be an anti‑semite which is il‑legal based on the Belgian & the Evropean laws...

I'm not a ob‑oedient soldier (like you say) and I never made any war, and thank God I never had to fight & e‑liminate no one. Again what you say is crap for most of 80% of Albanian mu‑slim (paci‑fist)...

I pre‑fer to be ob‑oedient / audient to God than to a dictator like a‑theist Enver Hoxha or men like you.

It is better to be an Albanian + Arbanian + Orbian : Oalvarabanian  /  Oalbuddo  from      than a Deb‧il‧is   {⊖DB⊖ ↔ ⊕BD⊕} (DEBILIS is not a DE + BEL root but DEB with -ILIS like SIMILIS, AGILIS...). These Albanians & Macedonians throat‑cutters (as you name them) in Syria are not a big part of us, may‑be 0,01% of all mu‑slim Albanians & Macedonians. But still they are free to de‑cide to make & do war if they want to. It is their free‑dom. I don't need to judge others like you do...

What about mu‑slims foreign fighter who come in Kosovo & Bosnia and who died there to help us (un‑like you) against the Serb army. For us they were heroes & martyrs. And what about U.S fighter who come in Evrope to bombard Serbian or fight the anti‑semitic & anti-slavic Nazi & Fascist. Was these U.S warriors heroes or stupid men ?

Being a fighter, a com‑batant or a warrior is not bad as you seem to think. Why people like Alexander, Aliskender‑beg  or Adem Jashari are re‑spected by mod‑ern Albanians ? They were fighters and heroes who fought counter the op‑pressors...

All states have military and a de‑fense, even social in‑sect like the ants & termites have a soldier‑class in‑side them, it is some‑thing very natural, even for humans to pro‑tect the weak & young or to fight against the en‑emy...

I'm not blind, I'm awaken , you are blind & your heart is locked to the truth & global reality, and you speak about i‑slam with‑out com‑pre‑hending is real essence (be‑cause you listen the Evropean pro‑paganda against it, i‑slam is not only Afghani‑stan and Syria & Iraq, they are lot of peace‑full mu‑slim states like the Kazakh, Azerbaijan, Malaysian, Moroccan...).

I lived in Belgium and I had French Christian Cath‑olic curriculum e‑ducation there, so I know very well this re‑ligion and his pre‑cepts... I‑slam is not the only think I had in my ex‑istence, you are trying to limit & re‑ducing my person, ex‑perience, culture & know‑ledge with‑out having any clue of my life and my e‑volution & pro‑gression, I think you should shut up...

I don't need to be freed be‑cause I never been a (LOW) SGLAWË, I'm a WALGSË / ͶΑΛΓΣΟΣ → ͶΑΛΕΓΣΟΣ ©®  (WEALTHY) SHALVAΘED    ОШАЛВБУДДАЇАН i lir Illyrian Albanian with Hindu Romi Ashkali be‑lieve co‑gnizance...

You are a re‑tro‑grade who limit it‑self to his Romano‑Byzantine history.

I see what languages you know in your user pro‑file and you don't have any com‑pre‑hension of Sem‧antic Sem‧itic. I'm studying these languages since 2003 like others re‑ligions, cultures & mytho‑logies and my in‑ter‑pretation of i‑slamic faith is not com‑mon and surely not the same as Hanbalite, but more like Shafi'it... This study & ex‑ploration will finish when I will die...

For me knowing Altaic (Japanese, Korean, Mongol, Turkish), Semitic (Obrit, Aramaic, Phoenician, Orbitian, Syriac), Persian, Slavic (Macedonian, Bulgarian, Bosnian), Hindu / Romi / Ashkali is a rich‑ness but for you it is the re‑verse...

I don't want to speak with you any‑more and I don't want to be like you. You are against 80% of your com‑patriots, you are an anti‑mu‑slimo‑albanians & a dis‑be‑liever.

Albanian mu‑slims (peace‑full) are not like you, we re‑spect the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians & Buddhists but not the a‑theists who are for i‑slam faith (Coran 8‑55), less than animals (beasts) be‑cause they don't re‑co‑gnize the ex‑istence & laws of the eternal living God creator of all things. Be‑cause they are to brain‑less (like beasts) or vain‑glorious.

I just wanted to talk with you be‑cause you ad‑ded Gheg Albanian terms and be‑cause you are an Shqiptar (but I'm not sure of it)... But now that I know you more deeply I'm really not in‑ter‑ested to be friend & dis‑cuss with you... I have an ad‑vice read the original Otmaman      /   /   Orbitian version of the Qranë i bekum , may be you will learn some‑thing. And you will not talk with‑out know‑ledge. Be‑cause the actual com‑piled Arabian version from Khalif Othman era is in dis‑order and not in chrono‑logical order, so some verse ab‑rogating some older one, can't be cor‑rectly com‑pre‑hended and in‑ter‑preted (the real order is findable in in‑ter‑net). In fact these two vords  &   (dark‑ness, θenebra, over‑cast, dull) are mis‑spelled & the pro‑nunciation is in‑verted, this is be‑cause of the mis‑usage of the Qra'at  ... Only the veri‑dic vedic  Ruwana  have the true keys... Mangêzd (talk) 19:10, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The ancient Albanians have chosen to call the IM‑PERATOR, MRET  and  MBRET  who are re‑lated to  / , who co‑gnate with check‑mate from Semitic Orbitian  & Obritian , linked to Latin MOR‧S MOR‧Θ‧IS MOR‧Θ‧AL‧IS BRUTUS & Ancient Greek ΒΡΟΤ‧ΟΣ & Slavic   ; make a com‑paraison with Zot (God, Lord : the life  and  & ).

Caesar Cutter  from Quþa   /  ...

This Mbret & Mret terms show the real feeling of the old Albanians against the domination of the Roman-Byzantine em‑pire, they say death / die to the mortal Im‑perator... They don't share your thinking about the Romano‑Byzantine era... Mangêzd (talk) 16:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


 * 80% of what you wrote is a distortion, missinterpretation and lack of understanding of what I wrote above..no surprise the animosity! Albanians are not 80% muslims, this is just wishful thinking of a religious fanatic like yourself who, despite the apparently good-willed assertions, doesn't trully respect other faiths..or atheists for that matter (who in Albania simply abound), something that I'm afraid is a hallmark of your religion. I remind you, AGAIN AND FOR THE LAST TIME, that Albanians are historically CHRISTIANS, the EARLIEST ONES IN EUROPE, who embraced Christianity PEACEFULLY by the APOSTOLIC work of St. Paul himself, but who were FORCED to convert to Islam for military, financial, economical and social reasons (and sometimes violence too), with all the well-known drama that ensued. This is no secret and is stated by EVERY serious historians who has written on the matter, and there's nothing you can do to change this, no matter how many verses of the Koran you recite! Now you can flare up as much as you want if Albanians want to return or stick to the history, culture and traditions of their ancestors, but this is the natural process of any sound nation (the wrong understanding of this point, btw, represents also the major hindrance for overcoming modern Albanian social problems)! You shamelessly call the Arberesh less Illyrian, but after 500 years THEY have retained the TRUE Albanian identity, traditions and language unchanged, while here you are, one of those who stayed, a rabid Islamic soldier defending blindly everything Gjergj Kastrioti fought against: protecting Albanian Christian-European culture, identity and independence from assimilation and destruction (physical and spiritual). Well, I'm afraid he didn't succeed with everyone! Saudi Arabia or Turkey don't want to conquer the world, as you banally try to put it, they want to create satellite nations, in order to gain a strong political foothold in Europe!! Can you answer me true Albanian, why do they finance the building of hundreds of mosques and Islamic colleges in Albania and Bosnia in areas of extreme poverty and illiteracy? Because they have the religious situation of Albanians and Bosnians so much at heart? Or because they seek militants like yourself (nothing wrong with being a militant, right?)? Why did the Ottomans before them do the same thing? They had Albanians so at heart to the extend to kill anyone who opened an Albanian book, but hey, not the Koran? What an islamic love right?! Why do imams in Kosovo and Macedonia keep distorting Albanian history and besmear Gjergj Kastrioti, Mother Theresa or any other infedel Christian figure, even saying Ottomans were liberators? Why do they have thousands of Albanian families in Macedonia change their Albanian names into Islamic names (again the Islamic identity vs. native identity). And do me the favor, don't come up with the overhackneyed statement Islam doesn't teach that, because from a national and historical point of view, that's absolutely IRRELEVANT! They could be Buddhists and the result would still be deleterious for Albanians..national alienation! Considering the strategic position of the Balkans and its history, even an 8 year old child understands how Islam was and is being used as a battering ram against Albanians and Bosnians in order to turn them into allied nations! They simply don't care about Albanian identity, they care about militants!!! You call yourself a true Albanian, but is it normal for a true Albanian to distort Albanian history and identity in order to please one's religious delight? But I think you are taking my words too personally, I can assure you that they're not, they are addressed to whatever person who indulges in POLITICAL RELIGION!! I don't know you and even don't want to, you wrote in my page and you began a religious rant which is absolutely out of place with the things we do here: the etymological dictionary of Albanian language. Albanian language, by the way, is an Indoeuropean language and (hey we reinvented the wheel) analysing it means placing it in the linguistic context of the Indoeuropean family. I don't need to study Semitic languages for that, although I don't dislike the idea at all. But your Semitic overzeal prevents you even from understanding this very simple fact. I won't even answer the anti-semitic crap which in recent times has become the trump card played by whoever lacks arguments! You seem an educated person, I'd recommend you use that education to help your fellow countrymen get out from the spiritual darkness their currently galopping into..if it's not afoul with your religion! Hopefully, for the last time, farewell!! Etimo (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

If you read the Wikipedia Statistics about it they are 80% (all link are in my pre‑vious post), you can try to deny it, but that doesn't change the reality... You can say what you want about the past but now we are mu‑slims for most of us...

You say "Why do they have thousands of Albanian families in Macedonia change their Albanian names into I‑slamic names (again the I‑slamic identity vs. native identity)", now, it is you who will de‑cide how your com‑patriots should be named ? If they want to take a Greek, Slav, Indian, Semitic or German name, in what it con‑cern you? Humans are free to act as they want and names them‑self how they want, you have a serious pro‑blem with the free‑dom of your fellows. Who do you think you are to say such things ? You say that the Arbëresh kept the original languages but the original is the Ghegs older than Tosks and it is the one that I still use, Gheg Skopje version.

You say "every‑thing Gjergj Kastrioti fought against: pro‑tecting Albanian Christian-Evropean culture, identity and in‑de‑pendence from as‑similation and de‑struction (physical and spiritual)" : do you know the medieval‑thinking of judgement of God ? If some‑one or a nations loose against his en‑emies, it is only the God will, so there is nothing more to ad‑d to this... His end by malaria show that God was not on his side. The op‑pressive rules that the Ottoman taken against Albanians were caused by these act of re‑bellions and be‑trayal against their authority... In any states of the world, if you try to fight with weapons against the state you are punished (killed or ar‑rested) by the police, military & justice... All nations do that, not only the Ottoman.

For 500 years God was on their side, then for a reason that I don't know (may‑be not enough faith, good actions or un‑justice) he has left them a‑side...

You say "PEACE‑FULLY by the APO‑STOLIC work of St. Paul him‑self", I'm not sure that lot peoples have been con‑verted by this manner (in 312, 4 à 5 % of the em‑pire population was Christians), but more likely con‑verted by ob‑ligation when the Roman Em‑pire de‑cided to make it his of‑ficial re‑ligion in 380. As I know the Romans and their taste for tortures, circus‑games & cruci‑fixions, I'm sure that lot of peoples con‑verted them‑self just by fear and co‑ercion... And this torture meth‑odo‑logy lasted in medieval time until the French re‑volution of the "Lumière"... The in‑quisition, colonialism (in Africa & America) and crusade a good ex‑ample of what can do the Roman‑Christianity... Burning peoples for just saying that they are sorcerers & witches or Jews and torturing them by lot of meth‑od to have false re‑co‑gnition of crimes... You speak like if the Western‑Evropean & Christians were very peace‑fully, nice & gentle peoples with very good practicals, you totally forgot that they were in wars among them‑self and counter the middle‑east, you forgot that the rights of Humans are some‑thing very new in fact (im‑posed in Evrope after second world‑war) and came from the French re‑volution in 17th century... During middle age the populations were brutals, rudes, bestials, primitives, dirty, water was con‑sidered as a source of dis‑ease so they didn't wash them‑self (sewers and latrines had fallen into dis‑use), see the ravage of the pest, whereas the mu‑slims at that time washed them‑self 5 times a day for praying AVDES... In medieval time, the western Evropean nobility urinated & de‑fecated in any place of their castles be‑cause they didn't had toilets), even the Antic‑Pagan‑Romans were cleaner than them be‑cause of the public & private therma... I wonder why you em‑bellishes medieval‑era and the Evropeans of that time...

I'm not a fanatic, fanatic is re‑lated of FAN‧US : temple of dead (from FAN { /   / FUN‧US FUN‧ER‧O FUN‧EST‧O FAN‧US OB‑FEN‧D‧O OB‑FEN‧S‧Ô } + SAN { SEN‧EO / SEN‧IL } = ΘΑΝ { ΘΑΝ‧ΑΤΟΣ / ΘΝΗ‧ΙΣΚΩ  }), I'm not a fanatic I'm not adoring the deads, the death & the killing, but only the ever‑lasting  unique creator God with‑out beginning  with‑out end  and I like his wonder‑full creations. (Read the 99 at‑tribute of God, they are more others but these are the canonic one, you will better com‑pre‑hend is nature).

My faith is sincere & real like the faith of Mother Theresa that you can't criticize... The Messianist & Nasari (Christian) faith have same pro‑phets and same Semitic origin than I‑slam of Isma‑el, brother of Isaac, the ancestor of Jews. The only thing that i‑slam (like judaism) re‑fuse is to say that Iesuo Oisa is son of God or God him‑self (trinity) {be‑cause like Coran say he ate & slept} and we re‑ject the Ortho‑dox & Cath‑olic practical of building statues of saints, angels & pro‑phets and icons (who is a pagan rite from poly‑theism era), the mu‑slims be‑lieve in the re‑turn of Iesuo Oisa at the end of the days... We are not so far of the Messianism  &, as you seem to think it, and love is an i‑slamic re‑com‑mendation ...

In the Coran, God through Gabri‑el then Mu‑Ħamed only say "to not take for Lords (not adore) angels & messengers (pro‑phets)" (3‑80 : Al‑qarana /  al‑karama  /   )...

Building mosque is a right granted by the United‑Nations Human rights ‑ Article 18, you can't do any‑thing about it, your way of thinking are same of the Northern‑League of Italia, who re‑fuse this basic right to be‑lievers from foreign states & nations... Also we pay for them so I don't see what is the pro‑blem, if you go to shop and have the money, what will you think if some‑one re‑fuse to let you bought something be‑cause of your be‑lieves ???

Again Coran mean reading and the first term of the re‑velation by the Angel to the pro‑phet is AQRA (read) and the Coran & i‑slam say "be‑came savant" (Coran 3‑79 : French trans‑lation of ), i‑slam don't preach the il‑literacy and stupid‑ness of the humans being... As you seem to think... Don't follow the in‑ter‑pretation of Afghans (shown in pro‑paganda medias) for ex‑ample...

You don't know the roots & the real sense of veri‑dical i‑slam, so don't speak about it...

At con‑trary, I can speak about Christianity be‑cause I have been in Cath‑olic school & I read the Bible (and others books like Rig‑Veda and mytho‑logies) to com‑pre‑hend it, be‑cause Coran say they are books from God, but have been falsi‑fied... I know what are the mis‑take that the Christians are doing by saying thing like Iesuo is son of God (H.C : 5‑18, 5‑75, 5‑116, 6‑100), i‑slam say if he is son of God every‑one are the sons of God (even the planets, stars, galaxy, flowers, animals, trees, etc...) but I can't find the verse, but he ex‑ist (you can look alter‑nate verse like H.C : 10‑18, 19‑35)...

God don't have kids & parents (H.C : 112‑1 to 4) {ORBITIAN &  ORB‧US} he is not like his creatures, he have material, mineral, vegetal, geo‑logical, astral, spectral, bio‑logical, meta‑physical creations (and lot others that I don't know)...

I‑slam only say what is forbidden and what we should do : That's all we don't have other ob‑ligations than that, the rest is only in‑ter‑pretation & free‑dom of though & actions...
 * 1. Faith (Shahada),
 * 2. Pray 5 times of the day, each time is based up‑on one biblical pro‑phets practices (Salat),
 * 3. Give the charity to the poor (Zakat),
 * 4. Make fast (Ramazan),
 * 5. Make the pilgrim (on foot or with a horse/camel/ass/mule) one time in is life to see the cities of middle‑east (Hadj).

Also, there is six pillar of the faith, but there is no wikipedia page about it...
 * 1) Belief in God (Zot ; Al‑ileh) vorthy of veneration & ad‑oration,
 * 2) Belief in Messengers (all) and Pro‑phets of God,
 * 3) Belief in all re‑velations and the Coran (God say in Al‑Qarana Ak‑Karma (3‑24, 6‑42) that he sent a messenger to every nations, we must learn their books),
 * 4) Belief in the ex‑istence of Angels (creation made of light / energy / photon) {and the ex‑istence of the Jjinns / Ginns (Agni / Ignis / Огнь) (creation made of fire / plasma, who knows ex‑actly ???)},
 * 5) Belief in the Day of Judgement in the Other‑World,
 * 6) Belief in the pre‑de‑stination (de‑stiny is writed be‑fore the birth and is known & de‑cided only by God)

You say "which is ab‑solutely out of place with the things we do here: the etymo‑logical dictionary of Albanian language", it is not true be‑cause Mu‑slim & Ottoman era Albanian words (of Persian, Turkish, Semitic, Slavic origin) are real & ex‑isting and should be ad‑ded there, and our term have root from these languages even if you think the con‑trary, but Proto‑Albanian theorist con‑spirationist are hiding this truth. So we can talk about it...

I can't bring peoples from dark‑ness to light and pre‑vent them from fire (UR‧Ô / UaR / WaR). Only those who want to seek the truth can do this by their own search, learning & mental will. Lot of peoples pre‑fer to stay in the ob‑scure & i‑gnorant side of life, be‑cause they are only at‑tracted by earth & by the physical world and are not in‑ter‑ested by the astral & spectral reality... Mangêzd (talk) 19:48, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I re‑puted back the dis‑cussion be‑cause I was editing a re‑sponse to your word about Saint Paul, when I noticed after "Saving page" that you e‑rased all the con‑versation & all my ex‑planations...

Why do you censure dis‑cussion, do you always re‑act like this ? This is very anti‑free‑dom of speak & ex‑pression, and dictatorial way of doing... Mangêzd (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


 * This is my talk page and I discuss issues on Albanian language!! I have already made myself clear and I have neither the will nor the time to be further dragged in nonsensical religious debates. I have answered you more than I had to. Now stop writing me about religious issues or I will report you at once! Thank you! Etimo (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I don't see why you should re‑port me for just re‑sponding to your out‑rageous false al‑legations about the i‑slam, the actual Ghegs identity & cultures, the Arabs, the Ottomans and terms origins & re‑movals in Standard Shqip... You are threatening me for using my law‑full & right‑full free‑dom of tough & speech U.S First Amendment and U.N Human Right article 18 & 19. But by censuring & de‑leting our dis‑cussion you show you real dis‑simulator un‑trans‑igent un‑tolerant nature of pro‑Romano‑Byzantine anti‑Turko‑Perso‑Arabs and anti‑Albanian mu‑slims. At least have the courage of your opinions by keeping them public. I will not talk with you about this any‑more, so don't re‑spond to this re‑ply... Good bye, ditën e mir, Zoti të rujt. Mangêzd (talk) 10:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Truth sometimes is outrageous, I know, but someone has to say it! It hurts you because you understand NOTHING of Turkish and Saudi Arabian politics in the Balkan and neither about Albanian history and culture in general! I deleted the conversation not because of censorship, but AGAIN, because this is an etymological dictionary which discusses linguistic issues, not religious ones, and I have absolutely no intention to clog my talk page with your islamic propaganda and verses of Kuran!!! You dragged me into a religious discussion (as I've noted many Albanian muslims like to do no matter the context) disguised as a linguistic one, and I replied you, as I always do with everyone. This is no place for preaching religion. I repeat it for the last time (this time for real): your views on Albanian language, culture and identity are totally unscientific, unreal and distorted through the religious loop you see it. This simple fact is backed by Albanology itself! Nice talking to you Etimo (talk) 13:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit
What you say is not the truth so it is not hurting me at all, I'm sad for you that you think like that with‑out com‑pre‑hending the real meaning, origin, sense of this holy book (your Pseudo‑nym (false‑name) is Etimo from Greek Vet‧um‧on (true‑sense‑ness) so try to ac‑cept the Ħaqiqat of my ex‑planations... My nick is Nemzag in‑version of Gazmen, my real name, simple no ? Does it sound Albanian for you or no ?).

My view of Albanians is based on our era, not the one of nost‑algic of pre‑ottoman   era... You should ac‑cept that the biggest part of the Shqyptars are now very dif‑ferents of the Albanian of Pagan Roman era & of the Arbanian of Ortho‑dox Byzantine era...

I'm not in‑ter‑ested by the politics, be‑cause really that doesn't af‑fect my every‑day life and all states from Asia, America, Evrope, Russia are doing the same in Albania (than Turks or Arabs. All have their own ob‑jectives, agenda & in‑ter‑ests)... I have an ad‑vice for you, don't be against mod‑ern demo‑cratic Turkey & Arab‑states (who never done any‑thing wrong to Albania) like you are, living with hate is not a good way of being... Why do you not speak about Italian in‑vasion of Albania in 1939 ? Do you think that the Shqyptärat & Kosovärat are Italians sub‑ordinate or sub‑mitted to Latin & Roman will and de‑pendant to them ? We don't need the in‑fluence, in‑sinuation, in‑ter‑vention or pro‑tection of Italia, France, España, Deutsch‑land, Russia or England em‑pire. We want the and the rules of the Human Rights of the United‑Nations organisation...

You talk about old Arbarians and that they were nazarenes /  and things like that, but you are not a true & real messianist  /  be‑cause Iesuo said :  Matthew 22:36 to 39 : "Teacher, which is the greatest com‑mandment in the Law?", "Jesus re‑plied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." ; "This is the first and greatest com‑mandment.", "And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as your‑self.". Even when it was killed on the cross he forgave his legion ex‑secutioners, but you, you hate your neighbours (Turks, Arabs, Persians and maybe Slaves), and even your own com‑patriots just be‑cause they are mu‑slims. The new generations of these nations have done nothing wrong to you and Albania... You should open your eyes about what is hypo‑crisy ("under‑judgement") and about the reality of what was Evrope during medieval‑time...

You say "They could be Buddʰists and the re‑sult would still be deleterious for Albanians", I know what you are, you are an isolationist and anti‑foreign‑cultures. For you en‑lightened peoples like the prince Buddʰa (who faith is the most paci‑fic) can't be followed be‑cause he is not Albanian. Are you waiting for an Albanian re‑volutionary pro‑phet or re‑velations ? This will never come...

Also, can you tell me what Albania pro‑duce ? We don't have our own cars (like Zastava, Ford, Opel, Fiat), no own bikes, no own choppers, no own tanks, no own cruisers, no own tools, no own electronics de‑vices, no own soft‑wares, no spiritual sacred books, no planes, nothing (even from pre‑ottoman times). If you re‑ject the techno‑logies & know‑ledges (spiritual or scienti‑fic) from others nations like Altaic (Panasonic, Sony, Samsung), or Germans (Bosch, Mercedes, Opel) or English (Intel, Apple, Microsoft), be‑cause they are not Albanians you will live like 600 years be‑fore...

Me, I ac‑cept & ad‑mits that others nations are more better & in‑tel‑ligent than us, in the spiritual side like the Hindu, Buddhist & Arabs and on techno‑logical side like French, Germans, Americans, Russians, Korean & Japanese... I don't com‑pre‑hend your con‑ceited & vain‑glorious Shqiptar clanistic tribalistic sectarism. There is no‑thing in the past of Arbëria (be‑tween 400 to 1400) to be proud of. Ditën e mir. Mangêzd (talk) 19:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I sug‑gest you to play the very good games series Total War : Rome (2004) & ad‑d‑on Alex‑ander (2005), Medieval 2 (2006) & ad‑d‑on Kingdom (2007), Empire (2009), Napoleon (2010) Shogun 2 (2011) & ad‑d‑on Fall of Samurai (2012) and Rome 2 (2013) and ad‑d‑on Attila (2015), it is very in‑structive. You will better com‑pre‑hend the reality and ethnicities of Evrope at that dif‑ferent times & epochs, and who con‑quered who, and who were really the Tyrants and ex‑tinct peoples & tribes... (I have all these games and others like Caesar IV, Age of Em‑pire Ⅰ, Age of Em‑pireⅡ & Age of Em‑pire Ⅲ so I can easily imagine and figure the actual reality of that era and his limitations : techno‑logies, military, archi‑tectural, etc...)

You forgot that in the past, each cities, then pro‑vinces, then states, then nations, then em‑pires of Evrope were always in war against each others, even if they were Christians (Ortho‑dox, Cath‑olic, then Pro‑testant against Rome & Athens like the Lutheran (German) or Calvinist (English)), Christianity never brought the peace in the con‑tinent at that time (from antiquity to modern‑era), the reason was to strong tribalism & clanism thoughts. Look how the nobility (Kings, Dukes, Lords, Counts, Barons) fought against rulers, members of their own families to gain their lands... Only the Human Rights of the Lumières era have bring peace on actual Evrope, our union ap‑ply these rules ad‑mitted by the United‑Nations (since few years after the end of second world‑war). Etimo read the history better... You have a very re‑stricted view on all of this matter... Good day. Mangêzd (talk) 10:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)


 * @Etimo: I think the best thing you can do is stop responding. That may be psychologically hard to do, but is worth trying. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

This is not the truth, this is your narrow & skimpy own version of the truth, based on your own limited and not global in‑ter‑pretation of histories and actual Albanians reality. Again you e‑rased my answer & arguments, to keep just your racist & para‑noiac psychosis re‑sponse... You are the most un‑pleasant Arbaric / Arbëresh that I ever met in my life... You even not allow me to ex‑press my‑self, Wiktionary is not only an (Etimo) "etymo‑logical dictionary" but an in‑ter‑national uni‑versal dictionary, all terms are ac‑cepted from any nations & cultures, from any one (who have sources), so we can dis‑cuss in Talk‑Pages (who are open to any‑one) about every‑thing, even Albanian terms with foreign re‑ligions origins. But you say no, you re‑fuse terms from Altaic, Persian, Slavic, Semitic origin even if the actual mu‑slims Albanians uses them in Kosovo, Macedonia, Monte‑negro and north of Albania in the un‑standard shqyp, con‑trari‑wise you only ac‑cept Greek & Latin, be‑cause in fact you are living in the past (600 ago) and you have the same way of thinking than the a‑theist Tosk com‑munist who made the standard in 1969. For me you are not an pro‑gredsist Illyrian Albanian Shqyptar but a re‑tro‑grad Scipio Romano‑Byzantine. And to‑day, as I said be‑fore, you and your tribe & clan are the minority of the actual Albanians i‑slamized cultures. All others Albanians tribes & clans can't be wrong and you only right. You can't re‑ject us or an‑nihilate our cultures & (mu‑slim Gheg) languages, by trying to e‑rase or de‑leting it. This is not demo‑cratic, multi‑partic & humanistic, but only Censor & Dictator‑ship like Enver Hoxha was.

Lamtumirë, mosëm fol mã edhe kurr skam me fol mã me ty. Mangêzd (talk) 10:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC)


 * @Nemzag, please stop bothering Etimo. It is unacceptable to write such abusive statements against another editor. If you cannot communicate with Etimo in a polite and friendly way, then do not contact him at all. Other editors are complaining about your insulting manner towards Etimo, so you have to stop now. —Stephen (Talk) 05:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Stephen, he started to speak bad against me, I was talking about phonetic of the Ghegs version, and terms removal & additions in the standard (Orthodox Tosk), and he begin to talk bad about the Ottoman/Turk era, and then about my identity saying stupid things like I don't have one, after he begin to insult my faith, after he started to talk bad about Arabs (who never invaded Albanian and who were under the rules of Turko‑mongol 670 years) and others thing who are not true... At the end of the conversation he was saying that we can't talk about religion...

I don't need to talk with him, I don't need this racist guy, he is not an Illyro‑Thracian Gheg Albanian Macedonian cosmopolitan like me interested by all majors cultures (Hindi, Persian, Greek, Slavic, Germano‑England, Latin, Altaic, Semitic, American, Evropean), but a Latin Roman Arbëresh... With very restricted idea about what is the actual reality of modern Albanity in Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia & North Albania. In fact he don't like us because we are not Cesartian Christian ortho‑dox, but as I written Jesus said (Mathew 22:36 to 39 : "And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as your‑self." and him hate is neighbour (even his compatriots because they have others religions, even if they are Buddhist or Hindu), so for me he is even not a real Christian Messianist Nazarene because he don't live with love for his neighbour but with hate... Again he erased my response...

I written many time to him in English & Albanian that I will not respond to his post any more and that I don't want to be friend with him, but he always added a aggressive & insulting response, I was obligated to answer and re‑stablish the truth... But I don't like his way of erasing discussion, that he started, for keeping his last racist & paranoiac response (Arabs & Turks politic in Albania, who surely is better than isolationism & communism), I said all states of the world (Evropean, Asian, Hindu, Russian) are doing the same in Albania (look how Italia invaded us in 1939), all have their own interests...

For him we (Albanian, Kosovar & Macedonian) are throat cutter and oboedient soldier of God, read his post, I'm sorry but I never cut the throat of no one and never make any war, and surely 99% of us doesn't are... I will not talk with him any‑more as I written in Shqyp : "Lamtumirë, mosëm fol mã edhe kurr skam me fol mã me ty" (Farewell, don't talk with me anymore, and never I will talk with again")...

Sorry but I'm not going to let him insult my Ghegs identity & my ancestors or the Turks, antique Persians and Arabs & Hebrews, he don't know the real history and the fact that the Romans & Byzantine were the real oppressor of all Evropean tribes (Germanic, Greek, Gaulish, Breton, Celts, Alemanni, Illyrian, Thracian, Semitic, Slavic) during antiquity (Roman Empire) to middle age (Byzantine empire)... All of these tribes had suffer because of their rules (I suggested to him to play Total War: Rome & Rome 2 to see who were the oppressors), but for him only the Ottoman (converted Turko‑mongol of Genghis Khan) are bad because in fact, they beat the Romano‑Byzantine empire...

I don't share his view of history, because for me the Latin Romans were cruel with circus games, slavery systems, tax and crucifixions systems... If he don't know the modern & ancient antique & middle‑age reality, then he better need to not start talking about this and about religions, that he don't comprehend, and a Semitic language that he don't know at all...

You say "Other editors are complaining about your insulting", I never insulted him, I said he is unpleasant to see how he censure all my responses (arguments & explanations), not respecting the simple U.N & U.S law of freedom of speech. That he is not a progressist like the Ghegs are (adding foreign words to mother tongue), but a retrograde who live 600 years ago (before the implementation of Turko‑mongolo‑Perso‑Semitic cultures of the Ottoman) not seeing the actual Albanian reality (75% mu‑slims), and that he is an untransigent & untolerant man who is the true based on his words... For him only Romano‑Byzantine deserve interest, I don't agree with him... All cultures are interesting.

I'm sorry Stephen, but he insulted me first. I don't know why others editors are taking his defences, when I see a all the ridiculous & racists thing he said. But surely these are racists or pro‑romans to... Our Albanians in‑ternal af‑fairs don't con‑cern them at all. Good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 10:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC)