User talk:Onyx~enwiktionary

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Some simple problems (I can't fix)
A couple of weeks back I harvested (on an 8-30 second delay) all the individual verb pages linked from Conjugation category pages.

Last night I ran a validation against my own conjugator. It examined 6933 verbs, looking only at the ones that appear directly (not as part of a compound) in the original 2007 v1 KOTUS list. Thus it skipped 430 verbs -- additions to the KOTUS list and verbs in types 77 and 78. It did not look at every individual form but looked at a sample devised to spot systematic errors such as the wrong strong, weak, or passive stem.

The vast majority of the pages validated just fine, as one would expect. However, there are a handful of error clusters described in sections below. I've spot-checked each family of error to see that it has not been corrected since I downloaded pages, and removed the groups that have since been corrected.

I don't know how to adjust the template invocations properly, so I am leaving these for more capable hands to correct. Onyx 17:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There are also a few discrepancies that require more of my attention before reporting or acquitting. Onyx 18:11, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

52-sanoa type
(asennoitua, kasautua, laimentua, laiskiintua) these show -tun instead of -dun or -nun, etc. (piristäytyä) this shows -tdyn (tarpoa) this needs tarvo- for 1st person and passive forms (äveriöityä, öljyttyä) these show -nut and -tu Onyx 17:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've fixed all of the above, but it might be good to check just to make sure. —CodeCat 20:05, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Checked and they all look good. Thanks.  Onyx 02:26, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

61-sallia type
pykiä shows pykin instead of pyin Onyx 17:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The entry has two conjugation tables, one with pyin and one with pykin. Maybe pykin is an alternative form? —CodeCat 20:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops, I meant to check for that or for alternate entries in a single table but I missed this one. (My current program isn't looking for alternates.) To me this sounds like a plausible candidate for dual conjugations but I can't give a definitive answer on that.  Presumably it has two tables because someone who does know created it with two.  Onyx 02:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The first table (with pykin) sounds wrong to me. Other, more familiar similar verbs definitely do not have that form, e.g. nykiä -> nyin, sukia -> suin. On the other hand, it has been added by User:Jyril who normally knows what he does. As a minimum, the order should be changed, which I'm going to do right now. --Hekaheka 20:35, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The form pykin has probably been taken from database Joukahainen. I sent a comment to its administrator. Let's see what he has to say. --Hekaheka 21:00, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Joukahainen answered that pykiä is an exception and both forms are correct. --Hekaheka 21:10, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

64-juoda juottaman -> juotaman
All(?) the verbs in this type have a 't' too many in passive instructive 3rd inf. Onyx 17:53, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There was an error in template, fixed. --Hekaheka 20:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

66-rohkaista
(häväistä rangaista vavista) need weak stem in -ssut -sseet -kaa -ssee -tava -tiin -tu -takoon -taessa Onyx 17:56, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My authority on these three is Holman (1984) on rangaista. When I tried to double-check häväistä with the family Finn, she thought there was some potential ambiguity on the past participles.  And since since vavista has an alternate form vapista, there might be some crossover there.  Needs a native-or-higher touch, I see, since overrides of default formation might be needed.  But one thing in particular that I've caught in a few of the templates (juoda and others, I think) is that -essa (passive inessive II) and -man (passive instructive III) should always agree on their passive stem (juota+essa and juota+man) but sometimes do not. Onyx 02:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * These are tricky ones. My ear would accept conjugations of vavista and häväistä, häpäistä also without consonant gradation as in verbs havista: and läpäistä: but then again, I'm an engineer and not a linguist. --Hekaheka 20:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Joukahainen agrees with me on häväistä and häpäistä but not on vavista. --Hekaheka 21:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

67-tulla
These have strong and weak stems reversed in many forms eg keinotelen->keinottelen and keinoteleva->keinotteleva: (keinotella, kutitella, laverrella, löntystellä, mutkitella, napsautella, napsutella, naputella, narahdella, naurahdella, nikotella, notkahdella, nukahdella, nuljahdella, ositella, osoitella, paistatella, paisutella, parannella, paukahdella, paukautella, paukutella, pihistellä) Onyx 18:00, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I've fixed all the above verbs, but I'm not quite sure about löntystellä and pihistellä. It seems they were listed as having consonant gradation but they really don't? —CodeCat 20:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Good, thanks. I checked one at random and it's fine now.  pihistellä and löntystellä won't have consonant gradation because the 's' inhibits it there. When I first flagged these, they were keinotelen (instead of keinottelen) and pihisttelen (instead pihistelen).  Now they are both right.  Onyx 03:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

72-vanheta
These need weak stem in passive instructive 3rd inf, e.g. etettämän-edettämän: (edettämän, halvettaman, hapattaman, heikettämän, heikottaman, helpottaman, herkettämän, hoikettaman, huipettaman, huvettaman, jyrkettämän, jäykettämän, kalvettaman, karjettaman, kavettaman, kevettämän, kiinnettämän, kyettämän, leudottaman, liiettämän, liuettaman, loitottaman, lämmettämän, mädättämän, niukettaman, oiettaman, paettaman, pidettämän, rankettaman, rauettaman, rohjettaman, saettaman, sankettaman, seljettämän, soettaman, soukettaman, suipettaman, supettaman, synkettämän, taettaman, tarjettaman, tiukettaman, toettaman, tylpettämän, ulottaman, urjettaman, vaiettaman, valjettaman, vankettaman, yhdettämä) Onyx 18:05, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the template, so that should have fixed all the entires along with it. —CodeCat 20:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, looks good at random. Onyx 03:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

75-selvitä
These have 'a' rather than the verb's own vowel e.g. melattaman -> meluttaman in (aallottama, bingottama, diskottama, erittämä, haluttama, hamuttama, hellittämä, hirvittämä, hulmuttama, hälyttämä, hävittämä, jyryttämä, kohuttama, käryttämä, lassottama, lastuttama, levittämä, liesuttama, lietsuttama, loimuttama, loiskuttama, lyijyttämä, lymyttämä, lämmittämä, meluttama, muodottama, myrskyttämä, mölyttämä, möyryttämä, nimettämä, nujuttama, pehmittämä, peitottama, piiluttama, pyryttämä, pöllyttämä, pölyttämä, rymyttämä, ryöpyttämä, röyhyttämä, selittämä, selvittämä, siittämä, silittämä, solmittama, tyrskyttämä, virittämä) Onyx 18:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I fixed the template for these entries, I think it's right now? —CodeCat 20:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, looks good at random. Onyx 03:17, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

ennen pitkää
That seems to have gotten broken around 2009. Originally "before long," it was changed at that time to "in the long run," apparently based on a misunderstanding of the English. "In the long run" means essentially the opposite of "before long" and "ennen pitkää." It means "not any time soon, but eventually," like "pitkän päälle." "Before long" and "ennen pitkää" mean "fairly soon though not right away" -- i.e. "before long," to which I have restored it. Onyx 17:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

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Renamed
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