User talk:Pulimaiyi/2022

How we will see unregistered users
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18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

-డు
Could you check the etymology at this Telugu entry? It was added by an IP. We lack a language code for Old Telugu. ·~  dictátor · mundꟾ  14:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That etymology is legit. As for Old Telugu, I second having a code for it. I'll contact the concerned editors of the area and add a code once I get the go-ahead. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 07:35, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Sanskrit adjectival templates
Hello, please advise me on how to manually set a form in Sanskrit adjective templates (for example, to set the neuter of itara as itarad in Classical Sanskrit and itaram in Vedic). Thank you, Prahlad balaji (talk) 00:03, 1 March 2022 (UTC)


 * @Prahlad balaji: you can use parameters like, etc. in the declension template sa-decl-noun-n. In sa-decl-adj-mfn use  and likewise. —Svārtava  (t/u) • 04:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, @Svartava for the help! I would like to say that "itarad" is Classical and "itaram" is Vedic; how do I specify one as Vedic and the other as Classical? Thanks, Prahlad balaji (talk) 15:14, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I added the second (Vedic) form too. I don't know how to label them though in the new automated template. At, for instance, declension is entered manually because it is irregular and there I have labeled the Vedic forms with Vedic. I think what you can do is add  at the end of the template and specify that इतरद् is Classical and इतरम् is Vedic. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)  01:11, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, the  parameter doesn't work, but I did add a note at the bottom of the template manually. Thanks for the help everyone! Prahlad balaji (talk) 01:58, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I realized now, that's because it only works for nouns apparently. The current solution is good enough. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 15:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Question
Hi, sorry to bother you. But I just came across the Sanskrit page at दर्शयति, which says that the verb is causative and of class 4. However, in my experience, causative verbs are usually class 10. Since you seem to be more well-versed in Sanskrit than I am, can you please double-check it? Thank you, Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:11, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, it must have been a mistake. Causatives are indeed always class 10. Thanks for catching the error! -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 07:58, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

All done!
All the tagging for now is done. Thank you so much for the deletions. Thanks to your help and that of other admins, we've deleted 1000+ wrong Latin inflections in the past few days. Already I picked up a confused person on Stack Exchange thinking one of our nonsensical forms was real, so I am sure this exercise will prevent confusion among the broader Latin community. This, that and the other (talk) 10:15, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem, glad to be of help! -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 10:29, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Donor language of post-OIA terms in Dravidian languages

 * Thanks for creating the entry for . Perhaps it is comparable to and . Since I have no competency in Kannada, I would unfortunately have to ask on a case-by-case basis whether or not a term in R:kn:Kittel is representative of modern Kannada.


 * When creating the following entries for Old Marathi, I assumed that (Old) Kannada and the other Dravidian languages borrowed from Old Marathi rather than the corresponding Prakrit terms.




 * The reasoning behind this assumption is that Old Kannada would have been contemporaneous and in direct contact with Old Marathi during the early NIA period rather than with Prakrit, which would have been a dead language by c. 500 CE, from the MIA period. Also, the phonology of the borrowing from Old Marathi to Old Kannada seems plausible for those these three examples. has a geminate  that is not present in  /, but  does have a geminate . Although other Dravidian languages were more distant from Old Marathi, Old Marathi would still have been most prominent Southern Indo-Aryan language at the time of borrowing. Should this practice of Old Marathi being the donor language continue, or should classical Prakrit be considered the donor language instead?


 * In any case, if an early NIA language such as Old Marathi is not suitable as the post-OIA donor language, and the borrowing occurred from and MIA language, what would determine the borrowing is from Pali or Prakrit such as for ? (the difference between Category:Kannada terms derived from Pali and Category:Kannada terms derived from Prakrit)
 * In many cases Pali and Prakrit are identical, so there seems to be no way to distinguish from which of the two languages a borrowing is derived from. Kutchkutch (talk) 03:12, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the donor language should be decided on a case by case basis. Where the Old Marathi term is identical to the Prakrit term and the Kannada borrowing, we can give Old Marathi as the source. But in many other cases, Kannada retains geminated consonants, etc which make a strong case for the source to be Middle IA, and not New IA. Pali is preferred over Prakrit because of instances like whereas Prakrit retains the initial [v]. But it is not as straightforward as one might think because Kannada anyway turns [v] to [b] even in inherited words (c.f. Dravidian  -> Kannada ). Other instances, like (Old) Kannada  had to be borrowed even earlier; early enough for the voiced velar to be de-voiced. I therefore suppose the borrowing to have happened before the Tamil-Kannada split when voiced and unvoiced stops were allophones. The source language for a term borrowed so early on has to be Middle Indo-Aryan. Kannada  is another interesting case and I cannot do it justice on this page; I intend to start a separate discussion about it on its talk page. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)  01:54, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Descendants Trees

 * Regarding the descendants tree style at 𑀭𑀓𑁆𑀔𑀲: I used to show languages that are related to one another under empty languages such as text & text at Special:PermanentLink/64087715, which was changed by Svartava at . Inqilābī pointed out at Wiktionary_talk:Votes/2021-03/Merging_Prakrit_lects_into_one:


 * text


 * However, I stopped listing empty languages after Svartava said the following at Talk:हसति:


 * text


 * Although organising by geographic zones and empty languages may be worthwhile attempts at showing the progression from MIA to NIA in the absence of data, the issue that Svartava points out still holds true in both organisation schemes. For most readers, it may look like unnecessary clutter. So, is reducing clutter or attempting to show the progression from MIA to NIA a higher priority? Whichever style is decided upon, making sure that all descendants conform that style will be a difficult task that is perhaps suitable for a bot. Kutchkutch (talk) 03:12, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I found this practice of arranging the Indo-Aryan descendants alphabetically quite arbitrary as it does not take into account the subfamilies within Indo-Aryan. So I tried to introduce a system where these subfamilies will be shown (the subfamilies will ultimately be ordered alphabetically). My intention was not to sort them geographically as such, but by their subfamilies. If Konkani and Bengali were from the same subfamily, I'd put the two together, regardless of the fact that they are from different geographic zones. In a PIE entry, for instance, we don’t write Ancient Greek, followed by Avestan, followed by Latin, followed by Sanskrit; these languages are first organised into Hellenic, Italic and Aryan and then accordingly ordered alphabetically. The same system is also followed in well written out Proto-Iranian entries where the descendants are grouped into Eastern Iranian, Western Iranian and so on.
 * Until recently, it was common to use language families and ancestor languages interchangeably; take, for instance, the style of formatting you mentioned where all languages descended from Gurjar Apabhransha would be grouped under “Gurjar Apabhransha” even if the Gurjar Apabhransha term is not given and has been nulled out. Thus “Gurjar Apabhransha” served both as an ancestor language and as a group of languages that descend from it. Another example is how until recently iir-pro would yield, thus confounding Indo-Iranian the branch with Proto-Indo-Iranian, the ancestor of all the languages inside this branch. This practice has been scrapped as of late and iir-pro now gives  . I also am in agreement that empty levels for languages should not be created when the term in that language do not exist; if they are created, then at least they should not be nulled out. If it reads  , it’ll show that a term is wanting whereas if an empty level if created for Gurjar Apabhransha, it creates the illusion that a group exists by the name of Gurjar Apabhransha.
 * On the basis that the same practice is followed for descendant trees in other entries, I am partial towards showing the subfamilies within Indo-Aryan in the descendant sections; for now, at least in entries where there are descendants from the whole family. Other entries with a few descendants can obviously wait. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 08:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Declension Resources
Hello,

I would be interested to know, where do you get your declension from on words such as ? I'm asking this because I am also interested in expanding and improving upon Sanskrit inflections.

Thanks, Prahlad balaji (talk) 07:27, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Monier Williams mentions it whenever any declension is irregular. In the case of, the term was attested a handful of times in Vedic and I looked them all up and filled in only those inflections which were attested. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 08:18, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Sanskrit module
Hi,

I am currently working on a module for Sanskrit conjugation which can be seen here. However, the problem is that the sa-translit module does not seem to work with it, while most others seem to (although they don't transliterate Sanskrit text). Could you please give some recommendations or fixes for the issue? Thanks. Prahlad balaji.test (talk) 07:30, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Lua is not my strong suit. The situation is indeed very curious and I will be looking into it to try figuring it out but don't expect anything soon. You might want to seek out someone who knows Lua. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴) 08:49, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you for the response. I have also asked AryamanA who hopefully knows Lua better. Hopefully the situation will be sorted out soon. Prahlad balaji.test (talk) 08:53, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I figured it out - I just had to use . Thanks for the help. Prahlad balaji.test (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Old LANG in descendants trees
Should the etymology-only codes for Old Awadhi text and Old Braj text be used, and should etymology-only codes be created for 'Old Maithili' and 'Old Marwari', so that they can be handled automatically? At WT:Languages it says:


 * Some lects (dialects, chronolects and topolects) are referred to in etymology sections without having entries. These languages are given certain exceptional codes which generally not do fit the pattern described above. These languages and their codes are stored in Module:etymology languages/data and described in Dialects.

Perhaps using etymological-only codes would also facilitate searching for all instances of them if any important actions about them need to be performed in the future. Although what 'Old Maithili' and 'Old Marwari' are is not certain, 'Old Awadhi' and 'Old Braj' seem to be a bit more certain. However, there are still several confusing aspects of using any of these languages in descendants trees such as 'Old Braj' possibly being a descendant of Old Hindi, which is one of the reasons why I have generally avoided mentioning them. Kutchkutch (talk) 00:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Greetings! The only reason I have been using  is that I did not know  text existed. Thanks for bringing it to my notice. I agree that it can be productive to have a code for Old Maithili too. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)  07:03, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If the fringe theory that ‘Old Maithili is the same as Old Bengali’ is dismissed, then it seems safe to create an etymological code for an earlier stage of Maithili. However, I haven’t been able to find the term payān outside of CDIAL. Since Tirhuta/Mithilakshar was the original Maithili script, it may be helpful to include that script in descendants trees alongside Devanagari.
 * Old Marwari is currently used at 𑀭𑀸𑀬 and 𑀲𑀼𑀢𑁆𑀢. A document used by CDIAL for Old Marwari claims that Old Marwari is somewhat different from Old Gujarati. Since Marwari is currently a descendant of Old Gujarati, perhaps a temporary solution would be to make Old Marwari a lect of Old Gujarati. Kutchkutch (talk) 04:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Your comment
Have replied on my talk page. Hölderlin2019 (talk) 21:00, 4 August 2022 (UTC)