User talk:RichardW57

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Again, welcome! Wyang (talk) 07:12, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Pali references/quotations
Hi, thanks for your Pali edits! Unfortunately, you are misusing templates and you aren't formatting references correctly. For examples, see my changes here. I will clean up after you for now, but please play closer attention to the format of existing entries and the entries I've fixed. Thanks. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 15:51, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * , unfortunately I don't fully understand you. Looking at the changes to ᨴᩮᩅ, I understand the following:

I don't understand what you mean by 'misusing templates'. The content added by pi-From Sai Kam Mong 241desitam has also been added to the entries for ᨷᩤᨷ and ᩉᩥᨲ. I had intended to also use it for other words once their Roman script entry had been created. I thought we were supposed to use templates for repeated content.
 * 1) I shouldn't have missed out pi-noun.  I'll have to check I haven't been doing that systematically.
 * 2) The evidence of spelling goes under references, rather than the quotation region for the meaning.
 * Yes, but you should never make a template for every single page of a reference work. Wiktionary is not a repository for quotations, quotations only serve the purpose of showing an entry's attestation. I have removed that template and its transclusions and replaced it with the general purpose quote template. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 21:26, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * 1. You should see that we use different head templates for lemma forms and non-lemma forms, that is base forms and inflected forms. The result is correct categorization. is categorized as “English non-lemma forms” because it is not what a paper dictionary would have, just inflection of  which is in “English lemmas”.
 * 2. Look into Category:Arabic reference templates to see how good templates look. We even create templates for whole authors, see, see . This eases quoting and citing. Creating a template for every page does not ease anything. But I can easily give links with good templates made for frequent use. automatically links pages just with the column number given. But the quoted text itself is generally to be typed into each entry. Fay Freak (talk) 21:42, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * None of the examples of their use I could find actually gives the quotation. Are you implying that rather than typing the quotation, its transcription and its transliteration, I could attest the spelling of the Tai Tham form of deva by just saying, in the references, " p241, line 7 (line beginning 'desitaṃ')", albeit with 'desitaṃ' in the script in which it is written?  (I would quote the start of the line because counting lines consistently is not as easy as it sounds.)
 * What do you mean by, "But the quoted text itself is generally to be typed into each entry". Are you agreeing with that assertion?  The reason for the multiple templates is that I need to quote the relevant text.  Are you suggesting that instead I have a single template that takes a page and chunk number as arguments, and selects the relevant text, transliteration and translation?  I've realised that emboldening is a complicating issue, but i can see ways of handling it using a Lua module. - RichardW57 (talk) 22:33, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * By the quoted text itself is generally to be typed into each entry I mean that you attest by typing the quotation, its transcription and its transliteration into each entry. But a reference to a book (website, whatever) you use often can be eased by templates made for this book. is easier to use than  repeating the bibliographical information each time. Yes,  is a single template that takes a page number as argument, and even a book identificator because it is for all books of this author. It is made without Lua. You see in  how it is used. Tip: On a template page look at “What links here” in the sidebar to see examples. Fay Freak (talk) 23:25, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I had one core template with biblographic detail, now modified and renamed to RQ:pi:Sai Kam Mong, but then called pi-From Sai Kam Mong and containing provision for the actual quotation:



...
 * The entries then invoked the now deleted pi-From Sai Kam Mong 241desitam, which, shorn of comments and obligatory documentation, looked something like:


 * Now, if one viewed this template outside the editor, it would of course show the bibliographic data, but the bibliographic data only resided in one template and the Wiktionary caches. Did I perhaps err by not using templates for the documentation pages?
 * There is one problem with this template that I had not addressed. For the alternative form of 'deva', I need to embolden 'devadevena' (or 'deva' or 'devena'); for the alternative form of 'pāpa', I need to embolden 'pāpa', and for the alternative form of 'hita' I need to embolden some or all of 'hitatthāya'.  I was planning ultimately to use this quotation for another four or so words.  I understand that complex string manipulation is best done with Lua.
 * , I am struggling with the concept that Wiktionary is not a repository for quotations. If entries should show quotations - but most that I have seen do not - where are quotations from books stored? - RichardW57 (talk) 00:38, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Correction: pi-From Sai Kam Mong 241desitam also had a line:


 * p = 241
 * RichardW57 (talk) 01:17, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Quotations are entered in the source of the page itself. There is (almost?) never a case where a particular quotation from a source deserves its own template - in fact, I don't recall having ever seen such a thing. For example, you can see, where the quotation and the citation of the quoted text is directly in the source of the page. If you feel that adding comments is necessary, you can do so (but, I don't think those comments are necessary because adding a translation is just good practice for non-English quotations).
 * The system you are describing sounds like a technical headache (e.g. why do we need a whole Lua module for a quotation being used on 4 pages?), and it also does not offer support for automatic transliteration. This also makes life difficult for future editors who would find this level of abstraction difficult to navigate, for example if they want to make a change to the quote's text. The generic templates quote and the family of quote-news, cite-book/quote-book already handle all of this in a consistent manner. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 01:50, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The quotation at occurs only in that entry - unless it's typed in differently at other locations!  (It shouldn't be, because it seems that cut and paste was an available option.)
 * The scheme I have in mind is:
 * Entry invokes quote-specific template, passing it a word identifier. I think the word identifier will have to be defined in the context of the quote, e.g. lexeme '01' or '12'.
 * Quote-specific template contains the marked up quote, optionally the correspondingly marked up transliteration, and the correspondingly marked up translation, and passes them to the book-specific module along with the page number and the word identifier. It might be possible to use a generic module.
 * The module uses the word identifier to embolden the word and strip out the word-tagging mark up. It then invokes the RQ template with the appropriate parameters.
 * So, if an editor sees a problem with the quoted text, he starts editing and sees a template. A lot of entries already look like a stream of template invocations.  On opening the template up, he finds marked-up strings such as:
 * {1-desitaṃ} {2-deva}{3-devena} {4-}sabba}{5-papa}} {6-vināsanaṃ} {7-sabba}{8-loka}-{9-hitatthāya} {10-maṅgalaṃ} taṃ {11-bhaṇāmahe}
 * (I may have to tweak the opening tags to '-1{' to work properly with Lua pattern handling.) Minor edits are straightforward.  If he thinks that devadeva is sufficiently idiomatic to deserve an entry, and we don't have a rule exempting it from script-specific evidence, he can then extend the tagging so the string includes {12-{2-deva}{3-devena}}} - Lua supports nesting punctuation.  All the relevant strings would have to be tagged.  (I trust the emboldening will survive automatic transliteration, so that manual transliteration can be optional.)  If he concludes that I have transcribed a word wrong, then the correction is immediately available to all the entries that use the quotation.  For example, it isn't always easy to tell 'na' and 'nā' apart in the Tai Tham script - the latter is sometimes just wider.
 * Submitted under an alias of RichardW57 - RichardW57m (talk) 11:11, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Automatic transliteration looks like something that would currently have to be bolted into the quote-specific template - quote-book doesn't support it, and that's what is invoked by the RQ template at the bottom, Template:RQ:pi:Sai Kam Mong. In AryanamanA's scheme, it would have to be invoked in the text of each entry! I presume one would want to be consistent on whether it was used on a quote. - RichardW57 (talk) 07:52, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Just to note. There are the quotation templates  and  which do support transcription, and can be placed after an  etc. So far I even need to use  because of bidirectionality problems ( applies language-specific formatting). Aside from this modules invoke . Fay Freak (talk) 20:47, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a feature request for quote-book. At the moment, I'm benefitting from the lack of language-specific formatting, as the formatting currently selects a Tai Tham font that can't handle consonant clusters with preposed vowels, won't ligate NAA round a subscript consonant, and illegally renders LETTER A plus dependent vowel the same as a separately coded independent vowel, all on top of making subscripts far too small.  All I'm asking for at the moment is the rendering of Pali - it's not as though I'm asking the font to render Northern Thai! - RichardW57 (talk) 23:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I could knock up a gash Tai Tham to Latin transliterator for Pali, and probably knock up a Pali transliterator for academic Thai script to Latin. I might even be able to get it to handle the demotic Thai script writing system for Pali.  (I started looking at Pali at Wiktionary because converting consonant clusters with preposed vowels to the Thai script suffers from a lack of clear rules.  I was hoping Pali had been sorted out.) - RichardW57 (talk) 23:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I really do not understand the problem. If you make an automatic transliteration module for Tai Tham script for Pali, all of the template changes and feature requests you have conveyed thus far will become unnecessary. quote-book should only be used to reference the work in a quotation, not to provide the actual quote. quote is for the actual quote. If you want to automate things more, just use Q and provide metadata for works in Pali at Module:Quotations/pi/data. You can use Module:Quotations/sa/data as a base. Massive infrastructure changes are not necessary to do the particular things you have requested. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 19:02, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
 * As to the infrastructure, you (at least, not me!) should then edit the documentation for quote-book to deprecate its passage, translation, transliteration and brackets parameters so that people like will stop using them.  He added those parameters to RQ:pi:Sai Kam Mong, which made it more useful for me, though I could switch to using quote for them.


 * Do you think I could use all the features of Q? I can't.  If I simply rely on quoting book, page and line number, only people with access to a physical copy of the book can see the text.  Actually, 'text' is slightly misleading.  I am not referencing the *text* of the book; I am referencing the pictures of writings it contains.  The text of the book written by the author is in English.  Unfortunately, only someone with physical access to the book can verify that the quoted text actually exists and that I have copied it correctly.  However, given the quotes, the number of people who can check the interpretation then rapidly increases; they can also check that my copying down has not yielded gibberish.  I note that Wiktionary actually holds quotations from Plato, not just references to them.


 * I am working my quotations hard; I don't have a large Tai Tham Pali corpus. The mark-up is therefore usefully selecting the word to highlight, in the original, and this mark-up should survive transliteration.  The same mark-up scheme also selects the corresponding bit of the translation, though with minor issues when two Pali words correspond to one English word.  If a better or legally safer translation is found or devised, then it can be straightforwardly substituted.  For an example of the mark up at work, see the quotation for the Tai Tham spelling of Pali vana at.


 * I haven't found one; is there any Wiktionary standard for quoting scriptio continua texts? As I see it, one has to guess whether a line break is hyphenation, and inter-word break or a punctuation mark; spaces are the main punctuation mark in mainland SE Asian languages.  The question may not matter so much for Pali texts with minor and major section marks.  (These marks are a continuation of the Indian single and double danda.) - RichardW57 (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2018 (UTC)


 * You are misunderstanding what Q can do. Q does let you add a quote. E.g. pi gets:
 * For some reason Q does not provide automatic or allow manual transliteration, but you can get that by using quote in conjunction with it:
 * pi
 * If you add metadata to Module:Quotations/pi/data you can use other features in Q such as automatic adding of links to the text and author's page on Wikipedia as well as linking to the section of the actual document on Wikisource.
 * Your current markup scheme will require importing entire texts to Wiktionary (and that is not this site's purpose) and marking them up manually just to supply a couple of quotes for each section of the text. I think that level of abstraction is far beyond what is necessary, and current infrastructure and some copying and pasting gets us the same effect with far less effort. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 22:08, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
 * If you add metadata to Module:Quotations/pi/data you can use other features in Q such as automatic adding of links to the text and author's page on Wikipedia as well as linking to the section of the actual document on Wikisource.
 * Your current markup scheme will require importing entire texts to Wiktionary (and that is not this site's purpose) and marking them up manually just to supply a couple of quotes for each section of the text. I think that level of abstraction is far beyond what is necessary, and current infrastructure and some copying and pasting gets us the same effect with far less effort. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 22:08, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Do you expect the book to appear on Wikisource within 50 years? It was written in 2004. Sai Kam Mong does not have the copyright on the text I'm quoting; someone probably has the copyright on the pictures of it.

Q won't help with the individual documents sampled in Sai Kam Mong's book.

My current markup scheme marks up what gets quoted; at present, that gets imported anyway - once in my way, and for each use in what you recommend. Remember, I can't cut and paste the quoted text; I have to type it in. I am saving effort on revising the text. If there's an error in it, I just have to change one copy. Likewise for the translation. In the short term, I'm probably saving effort by not automating the transliteration - especially if I'm expected to detect word boundaries! - RichardW57 (talk) 23:09, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Module invocations
Please use a template and don't invoke modules directly in entries. DTLHS (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * As requested, I've now created (and documented) a template to interface between the main space page and the module, namely Template:RQ:pi:Sai Kam Mong quote. I am about to start converting the module invocations to template invocations.


 * It would be good if this prohibition were documented somewhere. There is a similar prohibition, but as I read it it didn't cover what I was doing, so I minimised the number of templates and didn't create an interface template. - RichardW57 (talk) 22:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)


 * , I think I've completed the conversion, but how do I check? As the module still gets invoked for the page, it is still recorded as being invoked by the page. - RichardW57 (talk) 23:52, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, all I meant was don't use #invoke: directly. DTLHS (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * , Understood. Is there a way of checking that I've done the conversion, or do I just wait for individual complaints if I've missed one?
 * I don't understand your question. All I asked was that you not use {{#invoke... in the main namespace. DTLHS (talk)
 * I took the request as implying a request to remove the direct invocations I had already created, e.g. by routing them through a template instead.

Pali in the Lao Script
How could the Lao script be added to the entries of the Pali language? Perhaps the script could be added before your proposed changes are implemented.

(Also, my computer has the required font for ordinary Lao letters, but not the Lao letters for Pali and Sanskrit.) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:32, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Straightforwardly, though to do it right some research is required. It's conceivable that Octahedron80 has already done it.  A first approximation is to clone the Thai.  A lot of the coding has already been done by Octahedron80.  The key locations where work is required are:


 * : Choose the abbreviation if any for the Lao script; possibly always required the code, as for Brahmi.
 * Module pi-Latn-translit: Check the transliteration accords with the final encoding, and uncomment out the bits for Lao.
 * The language database to add Laoo to the scripts for Pali: That's needed at least for.
 * Module pi-decl-noun: The fallback transliteration for declension may work for Lao, so we can use a data-free new module pi-decl/noun/Laoo.  The special code for Laoo will need to be uncommented out.
 * Module pi-conj/verb: The special code for Thai, as a visual order script, will need to be cloned for Lao. (Recognising the -eti and -oti endings in Thai and Lao scripts is a bit fiddly.)

The research that is needed is into the encoding of clusters with prescript vowels - where does the vowel go? (Thai won't put the vowel further left than immediately before the rightmost obstruent or nasal, and applies the muta cum liquida rule.) Thai vacillates with the murmured resonants - some put the vowel before the whole clusters, others in the middle. I therefore present both for the 2p and 3p of the present middle. The inflectional override mechanisms will handle the rare interactions with the stem, e.g. the masculine singular of a-stems and the regular optative of verbs. Template allows overrides, and I have been using them for the Tai Tham script -  is evil enough to need it, and I'm going to have to check why the alternatives seem to have gone missing. RichardW57m (talk) 09:38, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * About font, Pali & Sanskrit letters are recently introduced in Unicode 12.0. There is no suitable font at the moment of course. We should wait for some time. (We shouldn't make it yet if NO ONE can see.)
 * About orthography, just apply same rules as Thai script since they are both visual input (not logic input). FYI: Lao computer system is adopted from Thai, as seen in her encoding table. --Octahedron80 (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * PS. I think "L" could not be used for Tai Tham also because people will assume to Lao first.


 * And what are the rules for Pali in Thai script?
 * The proposal for the Pali letters claimed there was already a font in wide use, and that the proposal used the same encoding. However, I couldn’t find such a font when I looked for it. RichardW57 (talk) 19:28, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * You already see the rules how Thai script works on Pali; it is very straight method. You know that Thai-written Pali and Pali-derived Thai have a bit different spellings. (They are not the same language indeed.) Lao-written Pali will follow Thai-written Pali on matching letters by default.
 * The added letters are used in press printing that I have seen either. But no computer font is not yet created to support it AFAIK because they are just new. ("Font" in my sense only means to computer font.)--Octahedron80 (talk) 23:26, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I've had allegedly Unicode-encoded computer fonts supporting these letters for at least 10 years, though I haven't checked which fonts, if any, have them all in the now official place. As a test, I entered the phonetically unusual Pali word .  Once I'd fixed the bug in your enabling of transliteration to Lao script, I could read both the offered Thai and Lao script forms.  The Thai comes out as นิคฺโรธ and the Lao as ນິຄ຺ໂຣຘ.  The last Lao letter renders correctly, and I haven't deliberately installed any Lao fonts recently.  (I may have had a routine font update, though.)  However, the Thai transliteration comes out wrong - the majority spelling on the Internet is นิโคฺรธ, by a ratio of 1200:39.  Does a mis(?)spelling at the 3% level merit an entry?.
 * Now, the Thai rules are fiddly, and for the rare words with obstruent+semivowel, manually coercing the output of isn't too much of a problem.  Most 'words' with that sort of cluster are sandhi combinations, and probably don't merit an entry.  ([i]Tatreva[/i] might be an exception.)  However, it is possible that the Lao rules are deliberately different to the Thai rules.  If they are simple, it would be good to implement them. RichardW57 (talk) 00:59, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I must say that นิคฺโรธ is already correct for Pali. --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:28, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why? Are both correct?  If only one is correct, where are the rules?  Thy might be lurking on the website of what used to be the Royal Institute. นิโคฺรธ merits some sort of entry.  RichardW57 (talk) 07:41, 16 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Bindu (virama) usually denotes final consonant of prior syllable so it must be put immediately after its syllable. On rare cases, consonant over bindu is pronounced again on next syllable, such as ตสฺมา (sounds like ตสฺ-สฺมา) ชิตฺวา (sounds like ชิตฺ-ตฺวา). We must put คฺ after นิ even นิคฺโรธ reads นิคฺ-โคฺร-ธ. I suggest to put both นิคฺโรธ and นิโคฺรธ due to popularity. --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:53, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There are some publications using Yamakkan symbol (U+0E4E) to clarify these cases: ตส๎มา, ชิต๎วา, นิค๎โรธ/นิโค๎รธ. But this method is not popular because (1) it looks similar to killer mark (U+0E4C) and (2) it is not on keyboard. Todays we just use bindu every where. --Octahedron80 (talk) 11:36, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * (1) The original system was to use yamakkan in conjunction with wanchakan (U+0E4C); they were supposed to have been completely replaced by phinthu. (2) Linux keyboards tend to have yamakkan where Windows has the reportedly obsolete baht symbol (฿). RichardW57m (talk) 13:00, 16 May 2019 (UTC)


 * If yamakkan is still in use, then I suppose Wiktionary ought to cope with it. But Pali in Thai script seems under-represented - the only explicit verb I could find was just a verb form.  That's annoying considering the fiddly details that had to be addressed to display the conjugation of the present tense system. RichardW57m (talk) 12:57, 16 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The Lao and Thai scripts now each have one verb, and its present system conjugation (which is regular, given the 'special base') is now shown. RichardW57 (talk) 22:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)


 * It's also used for the initial consonant of syllables starting with a consonant cluster, most notably vy-/by- but also br- and tv- at the start of a word. It occurred to me that the statistics might be biased by phonetic respelling for the Thai word.  I therefore looked for the accusative, which is much rarer, but free of that corruption.  I got 112 v. 3 for นิโคฺรธํ v. นิคฺโรธํ.  What saves the second form is not necessarily its 3% of occurrences, but rather the conviction of people like you that it is the right form.  RichardW57m (talk) 12:25, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

FYI: On Thai Wiktionary, we use Thai script as substrate for pi-alt rather than Latin, which is easier for us. --Octahedron80 (talk) 08:33, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I just found Lao Pali Alpha here. It supports full new letters. But it is a little big; I must reduce font size in my CSS. --Octahedron80 (talk) 07:44, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

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सम्पद्
Please remember to link all important words in your definitions. Thanks! —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 04:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Separation of meanings
Regarding my and your latest changes on ក្សេត្រ. We went from 2 bullets with 2 semicolons each, to 2 bullets with 2 commas each (my change), to 4 bullets (your change). On the second meaning at least ( "area, region"), why would you like make it 2 distinct meanings, when they are not? The two translations are there to "paint" a broader idea of the term, not to exactly separate meanings. Headley gives even more equivalents: place, space, area, region, territory. And we could add more: zone, sector, land... Would we need to make one bullet for each of the synonyms of English? In reality, this word has just one meaning, with one restrictive sub-meaning (farmland). Sitaron (talk) 13:48, 31 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Plus, I can see that you did like I did on that word सम्पद् cited in the above thread, why would you do any differently for ក្សេត្រ? To clarify, the semicolons were "added in error" by a previous editor. It does not mean that he meant to separate the meanings in the first place, it seems he always write this way, and I wanted to fix that. Sitaron (talk) 14:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * (Written in parallel with the above.) OK, I see promoted Headley's commas to semicolons, which is a change of meaning.  I've reverted the division to your organisation, which accords with Headley 1977, at least, as presented by the SEALang dictionary. --RichardW57 (talk) 14:12, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Template pi-categoryTOC
Hi, Please you see this Mon Pali consonant link photo thanks.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 13:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Why? I'm a happily married man. :-)  More seriously:

--RichardW57 (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I suspect that the previous page of the book will tell you that အ is the first letter of the alphabet. The indexes are currently decluttered by only listing the first vowel letter.
 * We haven't overridden the sorting order enough to get အ to first position. I think it is more helpful if the list of initial letters is in the sort order we get.
 * Contrariwise, I am hoping that will soon put ၛ amongst the palatals, rather than after the vowel letters, which is where it currently goes.  If no-one does, it will have to be moved to the end in these tables of contents. --RichardW57 (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Niggahita and ṅa cannot start words, so they don't belong in the letter lists.
 * The Mymr script is the script of the Burmese Empire. If you want the name used changed, get consensus on the Beer Parlour.

Pinging --RichardW57m (talk) 11:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * ,Is Template pi-categoryTOC related to Pali language? if Template pi-categoryTOC is right about Pali, why don't you use Pali consonant? if Template pi-categoryTOC is true about Pali consonant, do not confuse it with Burmese consonant. You still need to learn what a Burmese consonant, Pali consonant, Mon consonant is, if you are a true scholar, you need to be able to distinguish right from wrong about the historical lies of the Burmese people.  There is no real Burmese consonant, the Burmese people use their Mon Pali consonant. You will be accused of trying to cover up Mon history because you call the letters in Burma the Burmese alphabet. I strongly condemn you for calling the letters in Burma the Burmese alphabet not thank I'm very angry about this issue.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 14:12, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You guys just stole a load of Indian letters. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * ,Do you have strong evidence for this accusation? if you have any solid evidence, show it to me. We Mon people did not steal Indian letters, We Mon people officially borrowed Indian letters from King Ashoka, there is strong evidence that we Mon people officially borrowed Indian letters from King Ashoka. You can find evidence at ancient pagodas in Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Indian that we Mon people officially borrowed Indian letters from King Ashoka. Please stop your evil conspiracy theories, you need to understand that you can lie to people who do not know much about history, you can not lie to me. I want to have a peaceful conversation with you, so you need to get rid of your historical lies, if you do not know the truth about history, do it yourself learn.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 04:57, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

pi-template module errors
Of the 22 module errors currently in CAT:E, three of them are due to documentation sections you created that appear to be deliberately designed to throw module errors.

Please tell me I'm mistaken and that you didn't do this on purpose. CAT:E is necessary for spotting problems in modules, and should be kept as clear as possible- no error should go unfixed for more than a few days. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I didn't intend to add them to the category - but I wanted an analogue to the input checking that one gets with . Unfortunately, that can't be demonstrated by example either.  Or is there a solution to that conundrum?  I now just return the text from  and friends as a bold red error message.  Template  isn't quite as useful as I thought.  Bold red text isn't quite as useful as raising an error, but it will usually do the job. --RichardW57 (talk) 07:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * --RichardW57 (talk) 07:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Kharosthi translit, S with cauda
Hello! Would you please take a look at the failed test case? Module:Khar-translit/testcases The Kharosthi-S-with-cauda doesn't produce Roman s-with-undermacron, so the result looks indistinguishable from ś (the cavarga fricative). --Frigoris (talk) 20:09, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * 'Twas a silly mistake, now corrected. --RichardW57 (talk) 20:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Capitalisation rule
Hello. Should Pali proper nouns (in Latin) be spelt with an uppercase or a lowercase? What’s the rule of thumb, if any? Thank you. ·~  dictátor · mundꟾ  12:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In the Latin script, they may be spelt either way. Pali Text Society publications, at least traditionally, use upper case.  In Roman transliteration, as done on Wiktionary, they are in lower case, and that rule also seems to be followed by the chanting books from our local temple.  (The chanting books don't cater for the Thai and Sinhalese parts of the local laity.)  In the English translations, they capitalise the titles of the Buddha (and also 'Dhamma' and 'Saṅgha'), but not in the Pali.  The chanting books do use capitals for the starts of lines in poetry and for sentences in Pali prose, and that differs from our (or at least my) transliteration practice. --RichardW57 (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I am aware that Wiktionary romanisation is all lowercase, so I guess this should also apply to the Latin script forms. ·~   dictátor · mundꟾ  15:47, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The Roman script form has a degree of autonomy. For example, the PTS spelling exploits the fact that there is no phonemic contrast between /n/ and /ŋ/, and writes  for both.  The writing of apostrophes is also a bit more than strict transliteration would allow.  And, of course, capitalisation rules assert themselves. --RichardW57 (talk) 16:47, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Stop trying to lie တလိုင်း

 * , Are you a real human being? if you are a human being, respect the true history of a minority, do not destroy the true history of a minority group that you have joined with extremist Burmese people. There are many books published by the Burmese people to oppress the Mon people, if you believe books that have been propagated by extremist Burmese people, you are an ignorant human being, can I honestly ask you? how long have you believed the propaganda lies of extremist Burmese people?, have you learned for yourself how extremist Burmese people have persecuted minorities? Have you ever seen the suffering of minorities fleeing into the jungle due to the killing of extremist Burmese people? Extremist Burmese people use a variety of methods to harass minorities, did you know that? can you show evidence of Ta Laingတလိုင်း terminology? as evidence of Ta Laing terminology, do not present with propaganda books by Burmese people extremist groups.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 21:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * If Burmese extremist groups refer to Mons as တလိုင်း, then 'Mon' is a Burmese meaning of the word. If you think that's bad, consider 'Taliang' in English.  It chiefly refers to a Bahnaric group, but is also used as a variant of 'Talaing', the normal English form of the word. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:54, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi. Please be polite to your fellow editors. If an admin sees this discussion page, you risk getting temporarily blocked. The utmost you can do for the Mon Nation here on Wiktionary is to create Mon entries which would help preserve the language. This is not the platform to keep complaining about atrocities committed against your nation. Also, we host entries for all words of all languages, including ethnic slurs, so there’s nothing wrong about such entries as this. ·~   dictátor · mundꟾ  11:56, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , Isn't Wiktionary a dictionary? Why did the English Wiktionary allow the false term Ta Laingတလိုင်း to be spelled Mon? why is it allowed in the English Wiktionary without being able to show us solid evidence that the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is Mon? is the English Wiktionary meant to attack an ethnic group? continuing to use the term Ta Laing as Mon in the English Wiktionary is an insult to the Mon people. You think I'm a rude person, who is the real rude person? have you checked? they are the real rude persons, I am not the real rude person. (for example, let me ask you a question, how would you feel if someone wrote something insulting about something you loved in this English Wiktionary? Please answer the example question I just asked), I also love Mon people very much, you also need to be sympathetic to how I feel about writing insulting articles about Mon people in the English Wiktionary. if you do not believe what I say, go and ask Mon people on Mon Wikipedia Facebook group and they will tell you that Ta Laingတလိုင်း is not Mon. if you want the truth, authenticity Mon Wikipedia to discuss, I do not need threats from you, I need justice from you, can you do me justice?.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 13:09, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary is an uncensored, descriptive dictionary. That means we include anything that has been used by the speakers of a given language. Are you saying that Burmese speakers have never said such things? Are you proclaiming their innocence? That is the only way we could remove that definition. You want justice? Wiktionary can't help you. All we can do is document the truth- about language and its usage, not about real life.
 * As for your "hypothetical": there are admins here who have protected entries for slurs used as justification for the mass murder of millions of their own people. Many of the terms here target people who are friends and colleagues of mine- people whom I respect and admire, who are a credit not just to their own race, but to the human race. No one should ever say such things- but people do, and have throughout history. If we are to tell the truth, we have to document this. The best we can do is label such things as ethnic slurs, and maybe add usage notes explaining things from a neutral point of view. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:09, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * says:--RichardW57 (talk) 15:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * In 1930 and 1947, Mon ethnic leaders, who considered the term "Talaing" to be pejorative, petitioned against the use of the term.
 * Is this story true? Did the petition relate purely to the use in the English language?
 * What do you mean by the expression "Ta Laingတလိုင်း is Mon"? What is "Ta Laing"?  If you want to quote the Burmese word with a transliteration, just write  .  "Talaing" is an English word, now rarely used.  No-one has claimed that that the words "Talaing" or "တလိုင်း" are Mon.  As for insulting words,  has to put up with English  and Thai . --RichardW57 (talk) 15:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I've found a contrast between the 'Talaing' and 'Mon' at https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/55ec8160-d552-322d-9f1b-940f139b6fc5 - "From Burma work developed across the border in Siam [Thailand], where another group, the Mons, spoke the same language as the Talaings."--RichardW57 (talk) 15:48, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , Ta Laingတလိုင်း is Tai Laingတႆးလႅင် and has nothing to do with Mon, accusing Ta Laing of being Mon is an insult to the Mon people. The term Ta Laing is the pronunciation of the Tai Laing people, if you want to know the true source of Ta Laing vocabulary, you have to talk to the Tai Laing people and listen carefully to their pronunciation, (for example the Burmese people call the term (စပုင်ကၠုၚ်ɕiəʔpɜŋklɜŋ) is (ချီးပိန်ကလိန်Chi thin pilot) satire is still used today, there are many words that Burmese people make fun of Mon people. Vocabulary that Burmese people make fun of Mon people many of them are written in their dictionaries, if you do not know the true history of Burma, you will not learn this true history, if you want to learn about the history of this Ta Laing incident, you can visit Burma in person. You learn not to visit Burma, as long as you read their propaganda book online, you will not know the true history of Ta Laingတလိုင်း, you need to learn 4 languages to know the exact source of Ta Laing vocabulary.

Once you become proficient in these four languages, you will find the source of Ta Laingတလိုင်း vocabulary, I spent six years learning the language to find the source of this Ta Laingတလိုင်း vocabulary, there is a lot of true history hidden in Burmese people in Burma. I can speak Shan, Mon, Burmese, Tai Laing, Thai, Japan, Chinese, Mon korean, Mon Thai, Korean, Rakhine, Tavoyan, Karen, Jingpho without difficulty. Travel on your own to find out if what I say is true or not, travel around the country and learn a language, it is an insult to the Mon people to accuse you of being Mon without knowing the exact source of the Ta Laing term.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 18:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Burmese language learning
 * 2) Mon language learning
 * 3) Shan language learning
 * 4) Tai Laing language learning
 * Perhaps I would understand you better if you wrote in Thai.
 * What do you mean by 'Ta Laing vocabulary'? Do you mean one of the following:
 * The English word 'Talaing'?
 * The Burmese word 'တလိုင်း'?
 * The words of the Tai Laing language?
 * In the sense of တလိုင်း meaning 'Tai Laing' in Burmese, you link to a video Tai Laing biography YouTube video for the pronunciation. At what time does this word occur?  Is it around 8:03 (i.e. 483 seconds)?  Can you make the lyrics available?  The word is oddly separated from the list of names of Shan groups starting with .  Also, is not the song in Shan?  It doesn't sound like Burmese to me.  Are you trying to use it as evidence for the meaning of a related Shan word? --RichardW57 (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is derived from the term Tai Longတႆးလုင်, the term Tai Longတႆးလုင် was coined in Burmese as Ta Laingတလိုင်း, and as time went on, few people knew that the term Ta Laing was derived from the word Tai Longတလိုင်း, during the Shan Revolution of 1740, the Hanthawaddy Mon people joined the Shan people in revolting against the King, so the  Kings called the Hanthawaddy forces Hanthawaddy Ta Laingဟံသာဝသီတလိုင်း. Shan rebel; Both Mon tribes were collectively called Ta Laing. The term Ta Laingတလိုင်း means "Hateful crude Races, Invaders" by the Burmese people, during the war with King  during the reign of Mon King, the Burmese called the Mon army the Ta Laing Army, the Mons also called the Burmese army (အရည်းကြီး A Ye Gyi) troops, the term (Ta Laingတလိုင်း) and (အရည်းကြီး A Ye Gyi) is a hateful term intended to incite hatred during war. Ta Laingတလိုင်း has been recorded in historical records as Mon since 1753 with the aim of oppressing the Mon people from Burmese people. During World War II, the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း was abbreviated to imperialist falses to refer to English people and Japanese people as resentment hatred invasion imperialisms as  used the term to humbly refer to the Mon people during the war, Ta Laingတလိုင်း is a term used by the Burmese people to refer to an enemy during a war. Isn't Wiktionary a dictionary? why use hate speech during the war? you are accusing Ta Laingတလိုင်း of being Mon, who paid you to do it? do you know how rude it is to just accuse Ta Laing of being Mon? do you know how upset I am that your Ta Laingတလိုင်း is accusing you of being Mon?.

See the following languages Please stop making accusations that hurt your Mon people, naming Mon people requires permission from Mon people, the Mon people can never allow the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း to be called Mon, this is because Mon people are not allowed to use the name Ta Laingတလိုင်း as Mon, if you are using Ta Laing as Mon, it is a terrorist attack, in order to confirm your lies, do not threaten to block my account, to accuse your Ta Laingတလိုင်း of being Mon is a violation of Wiktionary rules, please respect the history of Mon people, stop destroying your Mon history. The ancient name of the Mon people was Ramanรามัญရာမန်, the (Ramanรามัญရာမန်) is the original name of the Mon people, the name Ramanรามัญရာမန် is still used in Thailand today, in 1986, British English called the Mon people it Ta Laing, the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း in British English was not accepted by the Mon people because it was hate speech. In 1987, for the new name Ramanรามัญရာမန်, the Pali pronunciation of the word Ramanyaရာမည is still used today, the name Monမန် is derived from the Pali word Ramanyaရာမည. The term Ta Laingတလိုင်း you are writing has nothing to do with the Monမန် name, continuing to accuse Ta Laing of being Mon is a lie.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 10:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Shan language=တႆးလႅင်
 * 2) Tai Laing language=တႆးလုင် or တႆးလူင်
 * 3) Burmese language=တလိုင်း or တိုင်းလိုင်း 👈Shan pronunciation, but Burmese alphabet Shan pronunciation
 * When you write 'Ta Laing', do you mean 'Talaing'? To English speakers, these are not automatically the same word.  We have not had a clear statement that you find the English word 'Talaing' offensive.  I do not perceive anything deliberately offensive about it.
 * Wiktionary records usage, so we do record that 'frog' is a term used for Frenchmen. We also record Boche and Hun as meaning 'German'; these meanings are associated with being at war with Germany.
 * We might be persuaded to heed WMF policy on the translations we give. We will not accept limitations on what words are recorded.
 * Your etymology for the word above, as being transferred from the word for 'Shan', makes a lot of sense. We are reported to have done with the term frog, originally using it for the Dutch, whom we fought in the 17th century, before accepting a Dutchman as king and then fighting the French.  'Tai Long' and 'Tai Laing' are very different words.  'Tai Long' generally means Shans in general, Tai Laing refers to a specific group chiefly associated with Kachin State. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:36, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Do you have any good reason for using the word 'Talaing' as the translation of . I sense that that word may also be offensive to Mon ears.  If so, that should probably be recorded in usage notes rather than the entry. --RichardW57 (talk) 11:36, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As a disinterested outsider to the discussion, here are my reasons (good or not): (1) says Talaing is "Borrowed from Burmese တလိုင်း (ta.luing:)." (with two citations) and (2)  says Talaing is an English-language descendant of တလိုင်း.  You all do what you want; if you feel that's an insufficient basis for something I did, change it. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:46, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I wrote the တိုင်းလိုင်း,တလိုင်း,တႆးလုင်,တႆးလႅင် word Ta Laing in English according to the Burmese Pronunciation, I have not yet found a definitive answer to how the English spelling of the word တိုင်းလိုင်း,တလိုင်း,တႆးလုင်,တႆးလႅင် ​is spelled, so I wrote it in English according to the Burmese Pronunciation, but this is because Mon, Thai, Shan, English, Burmese spelling are not the same, consider the following spelling pattern.

By studying the spelling I have just written, you will find that spelling is different in all languages. No one has been able to provide specific evidence as to what language the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is derived from, currently, the term Ta Laingတလိုင်း is used by the Burmese people as a weapon of war. When Burmese people meet someone they hate, they start attacking with the word Ta Laingတလိုင်း. Mon people and Burmese people In the border areas of Mon State, the Burmese people, who are often at war, started attacking Mons as Ta Laingတလိုင်း, I have told you many times that Ta Laing တလိုင်း is not Mon. I suggest that you find out for yourself how accurate my statement that Ta Laingတလိုင်း it is not Mon. Since Wiktionary is a dictionary website, it is totally rude to use accusatory words that hurt a particular ethnic group on Wiktionary. (for example if we could only accuse English of being dog people, would English people like it?), since Ta Laingတလိုင်း is not Mon, we have no reason to accept the accusation of Mon. You may think my remarks are rude, but the very rude acts are just your Ta Laingတလိုင်း allegations. Hate speech that harms an ethnic group should never be used as a dictionary on Wiktionary, this is terrorism if you use hate speech that harms an ethnic group in Wiktionary. My actions are to protect Mon history and Mon people, as a Mon people, I have a great responsibility to protect Mon history and Mon people, by Wiktionary I do not accept any insults to Mon people, now accusing your Ta Laingတလိုင်း term of being Mon is an insult to the Mon people. I do not believe in online propaganda books like you, I think you believe in the propaganda books of the Burmese people, but if you do not believe in Burmese propaganda books, there is no reason to accuse Ta Laingတလိုင်း of being Mon. Burmese people have a lot of hate speech that they have invented to attack one of their ethnic groups. Here are some of the most rude hate words that Burmese people have ever invented.👇 term is used to refer to insulting hate speech that mainly attacks Japanese people). Definition=(The term Japan Ga Ton means rapists. History=The Burmese people called the Japanese people is Japan Ga To because Japanese soldiers arrested and raped women during World War II). There are many more hate words that Burmese people have invented, Wiktionary is a dictionary, so hate speech should not be used on Wiktionary, Admins in charge of Wiktionary should never be allowed to write hate speech that harms the dignity of a particular ethnic group. I hope you understand what I have just explained.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 07:14, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Thai spelling style=(Mon= ဘာသာသေံဇၞော်) (Thai= ภาษาไทยใหญ่) (Shan= ၽႃႇသႃႇထႆးယႂ်ႇ) (English= Thai Yai Language) definition=Shan Language
 * 2) Burmese spelling style=(Burmese= ရှမ်းဘာသာစကား or သျှာမ်ဘာသာစကား👈Old name) (English=Shan language) definition=ရှမ်းShan is a Burmese spelling pronunciation.
 * 3) Shan spelling style=(Shan=ၽႃႇသႃႇတႆးယႂ်ႇ or ၽႃႇသႃႇတႆး) (Thai=ภาษาไท) (English=Tai language or Tai Yai Language) definition=Shan Language.
 * 1) တလိုင်း Ta Laing (This Ta Laing term is a hate word used to attack Karen, Mon, Shan). Definition=The term Ta Laing means barbaric the rude.
 * 2) ဂျပန်ဂတုံ Japan Ga Ton (The Japan Ga Ton and

WOW! I have absolutely *no* intention to convince you that “alternative scripts” is better that “alternative forms” but it's an absolutely legitimate heading used in LOT of Sanskrit entries, especially when some variant of the word also exists like at. For clarity I prefer to always use that, when showing alternative scripts and not variants. To me it looks strange to have “alternative scripts” as the heading of the table generated by pi-alt and sa-alt below “alternative forms”. And I would like you to know that specifying the Latin script form on the when the entry title is the same is just redundant. Hence I'm reverting that edit. —Svārtava2 • 02:26, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I've undone your edit in accordance with WT:EL and WT:EL. I've fixed the discrepancy in table headings by reverting your edit to Module:pi-headword; I never did like it. --RichardW57 (talk) 16:20, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Deleting the 'redundant' Latin script form is disruptive. It makes generating 'soft redirects' more difficult - and more error-prone. Some of us use the browser to do our editing, which means we typically only have one buffer available for editing. ---RichardW57 (talk) 16:20, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * How so? Svārtava2 • 17:25, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Because the 'soft redirect' is created from the master entry, but needs to contain the Latin form as an argument to pi-alt. There are also a few cases where it is still needed as an argument to. That means two things need to be copied, but most browsers provide only one paste buffer. Moving up or down the stack of pages being edited seems to lose the edited content with IE11, and moving back and forth is perilous with Firefox and Chrome. (Firefox has got worse - it used to be simple to move back and forth without losing edits.) If the Roman script form is already in the text of the main lemma, there is just one thing to copy. --RichardW57 (talk) 19:19, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

vikappa
I wasn't sure if the Pali term kappa were a noun in addition to being an adjective. --Apisite (talk) 13:28, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * : It's only meaning I.1 that's an adjective. For vikappa, we have enough of an entry for now.  The PTS is still in copyright.
 * For what facts in the entries are you relying on the PTS? Is it rather 'further reading'?  As inline references seem to be acceptable, I'm converting a lot of my Childers references to inline references when I have occasion to edit the entries I added the genders to a few weeks ago. --RichardW57 (talk) 14:07, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Category
I was trying to clean up Special:WantedCategories and saw some categories that your user page was in which seem malformed. If you want to re-add them, I can try to help you figure out how to include them. I don't want your user page to be malformed, nor so I want it to lack something you're trying to express or use for collaboration. Please ping me if I can help. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * The only 'malformation' I saw was that the pages for the categories for Tai Tham users didn't exist. I've created the categories I belong to, and I may create pages for other Tai Tham categories that have users.  Useful but currently empty categories are liable to be deleted. I've reregistered myself as a user of the script. --RichardW57 (talk) 20:01, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that's all I meant: thanks for turning the red cats blue. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:08, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Diaresis in Prakrit declension
Your edit to Module:Brah-translit broke the logic in Module:pra-decl/noun, causing errors on and. 98.170.164.88 03:46, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The logic was already wrong for the accusative and vocative singular! Anyway, I've now modified the data table to handle Maharashtri Prakrit nouns ending in -ï and -ü in our transliteration. --RichardW57m (talk) 09:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! It's great that you fixed the preexisting mistakes too. 98.170.164.88 09:27, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

ज्ञाति
('This edit' below refers to Special:Diff/65974937/67168755 - it was in the original title. --RichardW57m (talk) 08:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC).)

Hello, regarding this edit, the derivation of is also possible from the root. This is supported by Monier-Williams, Apte, as well as Vedic Index. —Svārtava (t/u) • 14:05, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I have re-added as another possibility in the etymology. —Svārtava  (t/u) • 04:47, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

It's probably better to show both. There is precedent for the semantic shift - English kith sometimes seems to have the meaning of 'kin'. And if it did start out from the 'know' root, there's been plenty of time for cross-contamination with the 'beget' root. I've copied this over to User:RichardW57, where the conversation should continue, if there is need to do so and you don't want to use the Etymology Scriptorium. --RichardW57m (talk) 08:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC)


 * @RichardW57m: I agree, and have also discussed with User:Bhagadatta. On an unrelated note, you could join Discord server for quicker and easier communication. —Svārtava (t/u) • 12:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Declension Testcases
Since you have created formal declension tests for Pali and Prakrit, is there any assistance that you can provide to create formal declension tests for the following?


 * Module:mr-decl
 * Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl

There are visual testcases that still being developed at:


 * User talk:Kutchkutch/Sandbox
 * User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl

I tried adapting your code at


 * Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases

but did not get very far. If you are able create a setup that would allow adding dozens of formal testcases as shown at User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl, that would be extremely helpful. Thanks. Kutchkutch (talk) 08:24, 31 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not quite sure what you're hoping for. A set of tests in the layout of User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl would be very nice, but would require a relatively significant rewrite of Module:UnitTests, which might be contrary to Wiktionary policy on unit testing, and would be a lot of work.  By contrast, getting something like the current Prakrit tests working ought to be relatively straightforward. --RichardW57m (talk) 11:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The problem lies in developing something that can easily test the form generation without getting bogged down in the presentational details. Extracting the generated forms from the inflection module may not be easy.  For Pali verbs, I have separated content generation from content presentation, and that made testing much easier.


 * I will now address the simpler testing you are attempting in Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases.


 * The first problem is that lua and Module:links wrap the text differently. I've made a small change to the test cases module so that on test failure it shows the difference in the strings and declares an error.  The precise problem that I saw is that the attributes within the span tag are different.  To fix that error immediately, you would have to modify function lua.  You should be using the links module rather than DIY formatting.  In particular, you should link to the Marathi section on a page, not the page as a whole.  (Quite possibly this is code that has not caught up with that module.)


 * The second problem lies in the calculation of the variable lua. At present, your code:

lua
 * simply returns the citation form. At present you have no simple function to simply generate the direct and oblique forms.  Additionally, lua has no connection with the rest of the module it lies in.  Now, what one can do is to change the interface lua to instead deliver the direct and oblique forms, and then access them from the return value, which would replace variable lua.  Module:pra-decl/noun has a function that generates the forms for a particular case and number, namely lua, so I used that.  A better solution would be to separate case form generation and presentation in function lua and export the form generator to the testcases module.  (Unfortunately, this is the sort of change for which one wants working test cases so as to guard against subtle error.)  I would restrict lua to the presentation - that eliminates problems like the first one above.  (The variable lua deals with another, similar problem that I had.)


 * You've previously been nervous about coding changes, and this is some relatively significant surgery. Do you need me to make the changes I've suggested in the previous paragraph? --RichardW57m (talk) 11:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking the time to look at this, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough earlier.


 * I am not hoping for a set of formal tests in the layout of User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl. The purpose of User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl is just to establish what the testcases should be, but that page is not intended to be the actual testcases themselves. User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl is simply intended to be like an Appendix page such as the ones listed at Category:Noun appendices and Appendix:Declensions.


 * What I am hoping for is to be able to add a large number lines of the type:
 * etc...
 * as actual testcases at Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases based on the information at User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl. Thus, User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl would only function as reference when adding/editing the actual testcases at Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases.
 * etc...
 * as actual testcases at Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases based on the information at User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl. Thus, User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl would only function as reference when adding/editing the actual testcases at Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases.
 * etc...
 * as actual testcases at Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases based on the information at User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl. Thus, User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl would only function as reference when adding/editing the actual testcases at Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl/testcases.


 * Even if this is 'relatively significant surgery', please proceed with the changes that you have suggested to Module:User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl. Kutchkutch (talk) 18:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Will do, though not tonight. I intend to use 4 letter codes such as 'dirp' for direct plural for the case/number combinations, as being less confusing than numbers. --RichardW57 (talk) 19:33, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * For a second there, I thought you wrote "derp''... Chuck Entz (talk) 03:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Changes implemented. You may want to change the notation for the genitive.  I'm not acquainted with it, so I don't know what the 'obvious' notation is. --RichardW57 (talk) 19:54, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for creating this setup for testcases! I'll try using it and let you know if there are any issues or if the notation should be changed. Kutchkutch (talk) 08:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Since I wrote, I think I have a better understanding of the Marathi genitive - I previously had no knowledge of the Marathi adjective. As I now understand it, the genitive singular and genitive plural are basically adjectives in -ā.  As such, they basically each have seven forms (less somewhat random syncretism) - direct singular/plural masculine/feminine/neuter and oblique, where these will agree with the markings on the noun for the possessee.  In that case, I think a better set of acronyms would be:
 * gsms, gsmp, gsfs, gsfp, gsns, gsnp, gso
 * gpms, gpmp, gpfs, gpfp, gpns, gpnp, gpo
 * Then gsfp would stand for 'genitive singular feminine plural'.
 * To make the change, one would need to change the names in the declension module, and any genitive test cases you have added. The testcase module would then continue to work - I wrote it to automatically use the field names in the generated list of forms. --RichardW57 (talk) 09:40, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for trying to better understand the Marathi genitive & adjective. Yes, the following is correct:
 * text
 * text.
 * Therefore, this change to the set of acronyms would be much better, and please proceed with it. Either the masculine singular (-ā) or neuter singular (-e) can be treated as the citation form. At Talk:सारखे, the overall conclusion was that we should use the neuter singular. Therefore, it might make sense to have text the first column with the order of the acronyms being:




 * Another important aspect about the neuter -e ending is that it colloquially ends in -a rather than the formal -e, and this colloquial -a ending is written with an anusvara. Thus, it would be helpful if there are two terms as the output of text and text with the testcases being:


 * Also, with the exception of ची and च्या, the च in the genitive is pronounced as rather than the, which can be phonetically respelled as  with a nuqta to indicate that this is a different sound. Furthermore, mr with the nuqta links to [[चाक]] instead of [[च़ाक]] since this phonetically respelling is not used in normal writing. Using this respelt , the genitive testcases above would be:




 * Just like how the Prakrit and Pali declension modules support multiple scripts, would it be possible for this module to support the Modi script as well? Perhaps the procedure for Modi → Deva would be
 * {{tl|chars|omr-Deva|{tl|xlit|omr|INPUT}}
 * and Deva → Modi would be
 * omr.
 * For example, for the oblique singular of the text in Modi:
 * text in Devanagari = omr-Deva:
 * text in Devanagari = माळ्या
 * text in Modi = omr:
 * The transliteration module is MOD:mr-Modi-translit, so the transliteration of 𑘦𑘰𑘯𑘿𑘧𑘰 using mr is.
 * Kutchkutch (talk) 21:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Changing the labels looks like a job for Monday evening. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Reshuffling the presentation is a job for you. I think you're capable of doing the multiple outputs, but I may try that for you just in case you need an example.
 * The test module in principle can handle two scripts already, but there may be a problem with the 'transliteration' testing if the 'transliteration' is not a transliteration. For generating the Modi, I'm not sure that Devanagari -> std-Latin -> Modi will work.  You may need to go from marked up Devanagari to special-Latin to Modi; it may be better to go direct from marked up Devanagari to Modi.  There might be issues with repha handling whichever way you go.  Is the colloquial spelling written in Modi?
 * You could have Devanagari and Modi tests side-by-side. It could be inefficient because the full inflections aren't cached side-by-side.  For Prakrit, I converted the Brahmi test cases to the other scripts, so I knew the transliterations were the same.  It's a question of how to guard your tests from error.  It is possible for the test suite to be modified to simultaneously cache complete declensions different scripts, but the case of no forms would have to be handled specially. Let me know if you need such parallel caching.  I envisage detecting the script of the test case by the first form in the test data. RichardW57 (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You seem to have made the labelling changes yourself! --RichardW57 (talk) 22:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)


 * After I wrote that, I realised that I could try doing the change in acronyms myself, and then you replied before I was able to write an update.
 * Thanks for the detailed response regarding Modi. I'm not exactly clear what meant by
 * text
 * and
 * text
 * If supporting Modi is a long process, then perhaps that can be done after basic functionality in Devanagari is achieved. The Modi script ceased to be mainstream script by around 1950, and it's not clear whether the colloquial spelling had developed by then. However, for the limited modern usage after 1950, I don't see why the colloquial spelling can't be used.


 * I'm not sure if I'm capable of doing the multiple outputs, so if you could try that, then that would be helpful.


 * An important task that the module needs to handle is subclasses of the primary declensional paradigms. For example, when declensional endings are added to some (but not all) text and text stems, the text and text may be shortened to text and text. This is one of the reasons why there are so many testcases at User:Kutchkutch/mr-decl. Do you have any advice regarding this these subclasses? Kutchkutch (talk) 18:50, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it's better to get Devanagari working first. Then, depending on how different Modi spelling is from Devanagari, there will be a working system to adapt.  --RichardW57 (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The way I would approach the subclasses would be a compromise between ease of use and programming effort. I would implement a set of rules that cover most cases, and where necessary include parameters to allow the user to override the rules.  So I might have a parameter siu (for shorten ī/ū) that could take the values 'yes', 'no', 'both' (might shortening be optional?), and if the parameter is absent, follow the default rules.
 * For a true transliteration, the transliterated form only depends on the written form. That keeps matters easy.  Things get complicated if there is a special rule for the genitive singular, as Wiktionary has for the masculine and neuter of Russian adjectives.
 * The testbed caches the inflected forms. It calculates the full set once and uses these for the following tests.  One doesn't need to test all the forms if one is allowed to see the workings of the inflection generator.  The cache is cleared when a new word is specified.  Parallel caching would simply be having one of these caches for each script. --RichardW57 (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for elaborating on what text means. Perhaps that may be needed later on.

I added testcases for the primary declension paradigms and was able to get them to pass. Perhaps this is not the most efficient manner, especially for two outputs. How do I use parameters such as siu in the testcases? Would this be done by adding an extra element to

as

so that for a word such as

it would be

In the module, wouldn't this be the third element of

in function

03:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)


 * For the test case definitions, I would specify them as name-value pairs, so  or  .  The latter form is probably robuster.


 * As I would expect them to be named parameters, it wouldn't be element 3 in that table lua, but rather a field lua. (If the parameter is not provided, evaluating that field will yield the value lua, which tests as false in conditions.)  How you pass it to the module function lua is up to you.  I would gather such items together in an extra table lua.  Thus the test bed can gather them from the test case definitions without having to understand them, and you don't have to keep changing the argument list if you decide you need other tuning parameters.  I would allow lua to modify this table - Lua tables are effectively passed by reference, as the argument is effectively a pointer to the table. --RichardW57 (talk) 08:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)


 * How is the value for option weaken_iu going to be input from the lemma's page? mr-decl-noun won't work well, because lua will then have the value lua, rather than the value lua.  You could try using the code lua, but then mr-decl-noun would also set lua to lua. This is why I used string values in my input suggestion. --RichardW57m (talk) 13:19, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing this out. Changed  to   in the testcases.  Although the options are working in the testcases, there appears to be an issue with the options in the show function and the tables at User talk:Kutchkutch/Sandbox. To fix the error, perhaps I need to remove the options and try adding them again. Kutchkutch (talk) 13:21, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * To handle invocations like
 * वकील and गोवा with the current structure of function lua, you need to change
 * lua
 * to
 * lua
 * lua
 * lua
 * lua
 * I trust you're aware that the coding of lua is horribly muddled. What if both true and sg-only are specified?  Also, your calculation of the forms and their transliteration is done badly - any error in the generation of the forms would have to be corrected twice! --RichardW57 (talk) 19:16, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

User:Cepyita
Hi, could you check the edits to Burmese entries by this user? I've reverted the Burmese comparisons that they put in Chinese etymologies, but I'm not sure about the quality of their edits to the Burmese entries. Thanks! — justin(r)leung { (t...) 21:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I would say that was the person to call on, but I see he has already called attention to instances of recklessness / fraud by the user (Requests_for_deletion/Non-English, raised August 2022).  Hintha enquired about deletion, you said RFVN should be used, and nothing happened.  What I've seen of the last 3 or 4 pages does not look good.  Stand by for a swathe of  and  entries.  The only redeeming feature is that he has used my at least once, which is an alert. --RichardW57 (talk) 10:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I see Hintha has now raised against that batch, so the removal process has been initiated.  So now it's down to reviewing the rest of them. --RichardW57 (talk) 12:17, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I see Mahagaja's been breaching stated procedure and simply deleting the s. --RichardW57 (talk) 15:49, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I've checked his Burmese entries as far back as late April 2022, by which time Hintha was already working on them. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:47, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Richard, and ! — justin(r)leung { (t...) 20:59, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Why pi-0?
You clearly do know some Pali words. Certainly more than nothing. 178.120.61.208 14:26, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * But not enough to read most sentences without difficulty, and with a dictionary. I know enough to turn a translation into a word for word translation, but to go the other way takes significant effort.  Possibly we need some fractional levels.  That said, my Pali has improved since I filled in the Babel classification, in that I now understand a fair few chants. I would greatly struggle with communicating on a talk page in Pali. --RichardW57 (talk) 07:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Template:pi-conj-future/documentation
Please take a look at this and fix the problem. I'm not sure whether it's a problem with this page that your module edits exposed, or a problem with your module edits. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Nor am I, yet. I suspect it was caused by localising previously global variables.  Fortunately, it doesn't affect anything in main space at the moment, so its priority 3 at the moment, below a probable bad misdefinition of, in conjugation tables for , and  being upset at a gap in the coverage of the division of Pali verbs by the mode of formation of their present stems.  Please leave it adding members to cat:E so I don't forget about it. --RichardW57 (talk) 19:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It was a problem exposed by eliminating globals - I was missing an argument but accidentally abusing globals had hidden the problem. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Northern Thai / Lanna / Tai Tham
There are many Lanna lexicons that are widely used but have never been recorded in any dictionaries. What would be the best way to incorporate theses words into Wiktionary? As you may know, contemporary Lanna really lacks a written reccord, even in the media. Therefore, searching for the reference or the citation would be nearly impossible. For example, to say "because", people no longer say ย้อร (I'm using the computer that has no Tai Tham keyboard), instead, people say เปนทัด, เปนทัดว่า, or even เพราะว่า (with rhotic r). However, the words have never been recorded in any dictionary. Noktonissian (talk) 06:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I've been stumped on sources too. If there's nothing in social media, it almost doesn't exist - but then it is an LDL, so we only need one durable quotation.  Books printed from handwritten pages may be the best option for written material - I've found at least one preface in Lanna script.  However, I fear they tend to be written by old men, so more recent vocabulary is lost.  I have come across what seemed to be recent compositions in social media in the Lanna script - but it was using a hack font.  What gave it away was the use of what looked like stray ฯ acting as control characters to select and position subscript consonants.  Unfortunately, I cannot find any notes of these locations and recent searches have not found them.  Besides, the locations may not have been declared fit for quotations.
 * Unfun fact: Currently all but two of our Northern Thai quotations come from the New Testament! Now that's obviously a translation, and actually uses . --RichardW57 (talk) 08:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

ကီ
Please don't add hearsay to entries - it adds nothing of value. Theknightwho (talk) 01:48, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by 'hearsay'? Are you saying that  should definitely not have added the vowel of this word as the Mon version of iṃ in Pali words without attested examples? --RichardW57 (talk) 02:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @RichardW57 (a) “It is alleged that” with no further elaboration on the source is hearsay, which is worse than not giving a source at all since it gives the impression that the assertion is actually notable without giving any elaboration as to why, which is highly unhelpful and bad scholarship, (b) the source you originally gave was simply another user’s assurance, and a user who has been permanently blocked at that, so it is self-evident that the person who alleged it is not notable enough to warrant refuting in an entry, and (c) you also wrote it in such a way as to insult that user (“sole, distrusted, source”), in mainspace of all places. None of that is acceptable. Theknightwho (talk) 02:59, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The symbol ီ (U+102E) generally represents the vowel Ī in most languages, except that the vowel I+Ṃ In Mon and Mon-written Pali. (S'gaw Karen also has AW) Because they already have the symbol ဳ (U+1033) for the vowel Ī. Both symbols are used e.g. လၞီ (là-nìm) VS လၟဳ (là-mìi); it is their orthography. But you don't have to announce how they are used. --Octahedron80 (talk) 08:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

There are 4 ways (so far) to write Pali in Myanmar script (or Mon script) --Octahedron80 (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Authentic Indic transcription — This is most well known by scholars.
 * 2) Shan Indic transcription — Similar to #1 but it uses Shan alphabet.
 * 3) Shan syllabic transcription — It converts #2 to Shan syllables. It does not stack consonants.
 * 4) Mon Indic transcription — Similar to #1 but it uses Mon alphabet. Some vowels are changed to conform Mon. (said above)


 * Several Shan groups have had their own ways of writing Pali invented for them. They all have extra letters for Pali consonants.  Evidence of usage is pretty shaky. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have seen both styles with extra letters. See lots of them there. --Octahedron80 (talk) 06:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * But you haven't produced evidence of ီ for iṃ in Mon Pali. --RichardW57 (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Fine This is Intubesa sent to me for some time. And he has the whole book. I have another page, just want to show.  If you want to contact him for more evidences,  Remind that he is the monk (so he knows well about Mon Pali). I used to be friend with him and discussed about words. Don't mind him if he usually likes JPOP. --Octahedron80 (talk) 06:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What book is this? Is it durably archived?  Is it the dictionary referenced in R:mnw:Bhadanta1965?  (If it is, we could use it support entries for several Mon Pali variants.)
 * For the first image, https://ibb.co/zF7fkQX, the one example makes no sense. The column is a list of Pali nouns cited in the nominative singular, but the indicated from is, which by your claim is the accusative singular.  What makes most sense is that the Burmese form of the Pali nominative singular has been entered by mistake.
 * For the second image, https://ibb.co/QMKtf4T, I see the vowel mark in question indicated for one word in column 2, the Mon column,, which Halliday glosses as 'bear'. This is not relevant for Pali.  In column 4, the Pali column, three words are highlighted:
 * , where the ink has run so that I first misread it as . Not directly relevant to this discussion.
 * . In the first vowel, the inner circle has been drawn to far to the left and touches the outer circle.
 * . In the second vowel, the outer circle is not round enough on the bottom right and touches the inner circle.
 * None of the words indicated in this image are relevant to the question at hand. However, it does provide one very relevant word immediately above the third word indicated in the third column -, which shows "iṃ" beinɡ written in the Burmese styleǃ
 * So, you have provided one possible example, which shows every sign of being a typographical or grammar error, and a definite example of the vowel ဳ not being chosen to write "iṃ". --RichardW57 (talk) 11:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That's why I lead you to contact him. I have no any text. He has plenty references of Mon Pali. He used to show me many pages of this book but I lost them already. (I didn't paint the marker; he did.) He may show you some chanting verses. // I know only that ီ (im) and  ီု (ām/əm) has a lot of usage in Mon. And he tought me that  ီ (im) is also used in Pali. // I don't contradict about  because different regions can yield different meanings; many cases happened. --Octahedron80 (talk) 13:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I just recalled that, yes, it is R:mnw:Bhadanta1965 because there are 4 languages in it. The author of this book, Bhadanta Ketumati, deceased, was also a monk. --Octahedron80 (talk) 14:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

IP-adress removing accents from Sanskrit entries
Someone with changing IP-address (starting with 2400:1a00:bd11) is consistently removing Vedic accents from Sanskrit words, for example at, while also making (some) useful edits. How to even talk to someone with changing IP? Exarchus (talk) 20:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)


 * @Exarchus: If you're very lucky, he may re-use them. --RichardW57 (talk) 22:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)