User talk:Visocacae

Origin of the word 'neography'
Hello. You asked me about the word "neography" because I created the Wiktionary entry.

I'm moving your question here, because frankly we get a bunch of issues with "conlang" people that nobody wants to deal with. We try to deal with only the real ones. That's a lot of work in itself, and there are tons of languages dying every year among small Native American or Aboriginal Australian groups, etc. without trying to fuck around with hobbits.

However, your question about the word is interesting. What absolutely amazes me is that you are researching an English word since 2009 and you haven't looked at the OED (Oxford English Dictionary), generally seen as the main authority on the language, and would prefer to get on someone's wiki talk page...? I don't mean to be a dick, but wow, I mean, the material is out there, just go to your library and read a fucking book.

I checked on the OED for you, and it says the following, with citations from 1801:

neography, a new system or method of writing or spelling.
 * 1801 W. Dupré Lexicographia-neologica Gallica 199  Néographisme, neography; the practice of writing and spelling in a new and unusual manner.
 * 1810  Gentleman's Mag. 80 i. 136   A new system called neography, by which the publisher..has attempted to simplify..all the various modes of writing.
 * 1983  Monumenta Nipponica 38 336   The ersatz Nihongo propounded may be a futile will o' the wisp, but the case for it is exactly the same as that for the Gaelic neography of 1948.

It's hilarious that the oldest you could find was 2007! Read more books.

best wishes, Equinox ◑ 03:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh, I missed a point: (quoting your original question)
 * * Does a 10+ year old community with 22k members lend legitimacy to a word? Meaning a threshold of consensus that could be recognized by other dictionaries or institutions.
 * I will tell you what lends legitimacy to a word. Actual every day unconscious usage. If you use a word thinking "ah, I'm using the word, and this will help!" then no, it doesn't help.
 * Think about something like Kleenex (the tissue brand; I don't know where you are, I will assume the US because of the way you write; I'm in Britain). If you are a salesman for Kleenex and you keep going around pushing the word, that's not real usage. But when people finally start to say "Kleenex" when they really mean "any kind of tissue, whatever brand" (and lol, lawyers hate this) then you are dictionary-ready.
 * An online community of any number of people doesn't create a word. Unconscious usage does. Equinox ◑ 04:14, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, the OED is not freely accessible online. I'd apologize for the inconvenience it posed—I wasn't aware of your burdens or the etiquette of contact through user talk—but I guess I payed the price through this comically dickish attitude.
 * "It's hilarious that the oldest you could find was 2007! Read more books." What's hilarious is that I can pinpoint exactly where you stopped reading my message because I went on to mention references from 1913, 1865, and the very same 1810 reference you sent back to me. Maybe one day I too will have the staggering, book-reading intellect to be able to copy and paste an OED entry.
 * In case you're still interested in the unresolved substance of this query: I actually did read the sources of these quotes. And as I said in my original message, despite having the same spelling and etymology, this word has been coined independently at least 3 or 4 times, differing in intended meaning and not part of continuous or unified usage. They are certainly not always used in the same 'constructed script' sense as in the Wiktionary definition.
 * It's also highly questionable whether they were ever in as widespread use as 'neography' is now for constructed scripts. Where the threshold lies isn't clear to me, especially for a niche field, but I think there's a good descriptivist case for it being legitimized by its usage in this community. Furthermore, the 1810 example, despite its attestation in the OED, is precisely the salesman scenario you described.
 * You might say I'm splitting hairs, but "constructed scripts" is sufficiently semantically different from "a new system or method of writing or spelling" that my question about the origin of "constructed scripts" in the Wiktionary definition remains unanswered.
 * At any rate, the quote on the Wiktionary page is definitely not appropriate. In the source material of the quote, it is proposed as a new term, without precedent, and explicitly defined as "unconventional spelling" (direct quote).
 * Have a pleasant day Visocacae (talk) 15:33, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Have a pleasant day Visocacae (talk) 15:33, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * In that case, you want, not . Cheers, Equinox ◑ 16:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)