Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2012/June

= June 2012 =

Cognates of parts of a compound in etymologies
I just made an edit to overmorrow, removing a long list of cognates that seemed to overly complicate and obscure the etymology. I don't think there really should be any cognates listed for the parts of a compound word (cognates of the compound are fine, which I added). But I can't find anything about this on WT:ETY so I wonder is there a rule or guideline about this? Should there be one? 00:32, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I would just use my discretion. I was going to cite the cranberry example, but I'm sure we have some coverage at cran-:, or soon will. DCDuring TALK 15:45, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I tend to remove them and add to the lemma form. This is really just one facet of the debate on how much to include in etymologies, I'd say removing cognates in this sort of situation is as uncontroversial as it gets on this topic. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:42, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I agree. Ƿidsiþ 05:43, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Update on IPv6
(Apologies if this message isn't in your language. Please consider translating it, as well as the full version of this announcement on Meta)

The Wikimedia Foundation is planning to do limited testing of IPv6 on June 2-3. If there are not too many problems, we may fully enable IPv6 on World IPv6 day (June 6), and keep it enabled.

What this means for your project:


 * At least on June 2-3, 2012, you may see a small number of edits from IPv6 addresses, which are in the form " ". See e.g. IPv6 address. These addresses should behave like any other IP address: You can leave messages on their talk pages; you can track their contributions; you can block them. (See the full version of this announcement for notes on range blocks.)


 * In the mid term, some user scripts and tools will need to be adapted for IPv6.


 * We suspect that IPv6 usage is going to be very low initially, meaning that abuse should be manageable, and we will assist in the monitoring of the situation.

Read the full version of this announcement on how to test the behavior of IPv6 with various tools and how to leave bug reports, and to find a fuller analysis of the implications of the IPv6 migration.

--Erik Möller, VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation 00:53, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Distributed via Global message delivery. (Wrong page? Fix here.)

The pages on this might be a little inaccessible for the administrator who just wants to know "How do I block these new-fangled long IP address things?". I've therefore started an alternative &mdash; designed as a user guide rather than project notes &mdash; page at m:User:Jonathan de Boyne Pollard/Guide to blocking IP version 6 addresses. It's on Meta because, of course, it's not only the administrators here on this particular project that are going to be affected by this. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard (talk) 03:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's a v6 IP: Special:Contributions/2A01:E35:8AAF:B70:3DEC:3BFC:B001:26C5. Seems to be able to edit, and to be editing normally and helpfully. That's good. The WHOIS/Geolocate pages don't work, though. - -sche (discuss) 04:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And we've also already had a fake-IPV6 user name pop up (now blocked). Chuck Entz (talk) 04:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The WHOIS link doesn't work at all for any IP, but Geolocate definitely is having problems caused by the new IPs. The other links seem to work, though: RIPE narrows it down to France, if I'm reading it right. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Could any administrator replace the link in Template:anontools with WHOIS ? This should work with both IPv4 and IPv6. --Whym (talk) 06:39, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * How does it work? I just put in an IP address that recently edited, and the page seemed to just be a mirror of the ARIN page (which already links to, as "America"). If I had put it a non-American IP address, would it have recognized that and done something different instead? —Ruakh TALK 13:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think they are much different. The 'Regional' ones may add more detailed information, as Chuck Entz mentioned above.  If I recall correctly, the first link on the template had been to simply provide what a whois command gives, and the link to the Toolserver tool would restore that function in the most visible place in the template.  Having said that, I agree that the list might need to be revamped to reduce redundancy. --Whym (talk) 16:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

2011 Picture of the Year competition
commons:Commons:Picture of the Year/2011/Translations/mk • commons:Commons:Picture of the Year/2011/Translations/no • commons:Commons:Picture of the Year/2011/Translations/pl

Dear Wikimedians,

Wikimedia Commons is happy to announce that the 2011 Picture of the Year competition is now open. We are interested in your opinion as to which images qualify to be the Picture of the Year 2011. Any user registered at Commons or a Wikimedia wiki SUL-related to Commons [//toolserver.org/~pathoschild/accounteligibility/?user=&wiki=&event=24 with more than 75 edits before 1 April 2012 (UTC)] is welcome to vote and, of course everyone is welcome to view!

Detailed information about the contest can be found at the introductory page.

About 600 of the best of Wikimedia Common's photos, animations, movies and graphics were chosen –by the international Wikimedia Commons community– out of 12 million files during 2011 and are now called Featured Pictures.

From professional animal and plant shots to breathtaking panoramas and skylines, restorations of historically relevant images, images portraying the world's best architecture, maps, emblems, diagrams created with the most modern technology, and impressive human portraits, Commons Features Pictures of all flavors.

For your convenience, we have sorted the images into topic categories.

We regret that you receive this message in English; we intended to use banners to notify you in your native language but there was both, human and technical resistance.

See you on Commons! --Picture of the Year 2011 Committee 18:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Distributed via Global message delivery. (Wrong page? Fix here.)

LDL template

 * See also: Votes/2012-04/Languages with limited documentation

With the LDL (languages with limited documentation) vote set to pass later today, I thought I'd point out a line in the vote that requires an LDL template: "a box explaining that a low number of citations were used should be included on the entry page (such as by using the template). " To that end, BenjaminBarrett12 and I have created such a template, at User:Metaknowledge/ldl. Your comments, revisions, and other feedback is are requested. Feel free to edit it, but discuss any major changes here. Thanks --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:12, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Probably that's not the best name, since it looks like a language code. —Ruakh TALK 19:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I already noticed that, and my plan is to move it to . Any feedback about the substance? --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:42, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The text seems right. The color could use some improvement. —Ruakh TALK 19:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * BB said the previous color (hi-liter yellow) caused interference with link color due to color blindness. If you feel like trying something new, here's the palette. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:57, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have shifted the existing green up from 99FF99 to CCFFCC. Looks better to me, as the previous green was very lurid and felt more like foreground than background. Please tweak/revert as needed. (I agree with the text, BTW!) Equinox ◑ 20:03, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks much more official! Thanks, guys. What do you say to bolding the key words about "less than three"? --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:34, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don’t think it’s necessary. It whole box already stands out more than enough. Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV 23:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the template should mention somewhere that it’s allowed to have less than 3 citations only because the language has limited documentation. Otherwise someone might think that any unattested term is acceptable (in any language) as long as the template is there. Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV 23:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ach, I was hoping to keep it to two lines... --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 02:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I was hoping for slightly shorter, too, but I really like the second sentence! --BB12 (talk) 05:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I just cut it down a bit more in length (in tabbed langs it was running 4 lines). --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Msh210 and others: please see Template talk:LDL. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, I think it is basically finalized. For an example of the template in action, see ovaspen. Note that I added a new sentence to address Ungoliant's concerns. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

'cognate with' or 'cognate to'?
What is actually the right way to say this? Most of our etymologies use 'cognate with' so I've just copied that... 00:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * To me, only "cognate with" is correct. I’ve always considered "cognate to" to be a barbarism based on analogy with "related to". It reminds me of this new idiom "bored of". I have wondered whether "cognate to" and "bored of" might be Britishisms. —Stephen (Talk) 00:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the latter came from (have) tired of, confused with (am) bored with. It is hardly new; heard it in the '80s. Equinox ◑ 00:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * According to the Google Ngram Viewer, "cognate with" is more than three times as common: http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cognate+with%2Ccognate+to&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3. —Ruakh TALK 00:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Collins uses with: something that is cognate with something else.” Oxford gives an example with with: “the term is obviously cognate with the Malay sedan.”

COCA has five examples of cognate to and 17 of cognate with. —Michael Z. 2012-06-13 01:49 z 

Minor CFI change
As was noted in the thread two sections above this one, the CFI has been changed to reference, which unfortunately exists (although it is displayed as a redlink in the CFI by using an illegal namespace) and has as its output the string Kaan. I want to make sure there is consensus to instead have it mention, which was formerly known as User:Metaknowledge/ldl. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 02:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * +1, as they say on Reddit and Stack Exchange (and probably elsewhere). &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 05:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I support this as well. I assume right now I'm in the template dog house for getting that wrong.... --BB12 (talk) 05:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * +1. (By the way, I've created [[+1]]. I think it actually originated on Slashdot, and here's a Slashdot cite from before either Reddit or Stack Exchange existed — but I've left the etymology a bit open.) —Ruakh TALK 12:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, stupid of me, how could I forget Slashdot. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 22:41, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

✅ --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Bot flag for JAnDbot
I'm asking for bot flag and unblocking for JAnDbot. It is global bot based on pywikipedia. Is active on all wikipedias and many wiktioanries, but it was blocked in en more than three years ago. In that time there was active Interwicket, but is no more. When I am doing interwiki, I usually see, that in en are missing several links. I am working on category namespace too.

The problem was, that bot removed "incorrect" links - non matching in wiktionary mode (e.g. Mars/mars). In that time was no other possibility how to delete dead links and leave these non-matching, which are allowed in some Wiktioanries, but not welcome in others (like cs:). Now I am usualy running bot with -cleanup parameter, which does not remove links to redirects and non-matching, but removes dead links only, so the main problem is solved.

Thanks, JAn Dudík (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * To get a bot flag, you need to make a bot vote at WT:V. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You say it does not remove links to redirects now. But that’s what it did here: http://fr.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%E6%84%9B&diff=prev&oldid=10686668 ... why did that happen? Can it be fixed? —Stephen (Talk) 01:25, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, this was my fault, I use bot both at home and at work. And in one of these two computers I had bad template in command line. Now it should be fixed.
 * But, if flag will not be granted, please, unblock my bot, I want to make interwiki in category namespace too. JAn Dudík (talk) 21:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Update to languages with limited documentation
Following the pass of the vote for languages with limited documentation, Metaknowledge presented me with some additional languages to be added. As I looked at those languages and others, I wound up reconstructing the LDL language list into an inclusion and exclusion list as I had long suspected would be necessary.

The only language not excluded among those in Google's advanced search settings is Esperanto.

In my review, I tried to be reasonably thorough with the languages of the world. Among the resources I used were Language isolate, List of language families and Mixed language.

I would like to ask for consensus to change the list from this:

to this, where boldface text (except for the title) indicates a change in content:

We also discussed whether Yiddish should be excluded. I would like to bring that up as a separate topic after this is concluded. --BB12 (talk) 16:56, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, Catalan has official status (in Andorra), which is why I didn't suggest it for the exclusion list; it is already excluded. Otherwise, I support this important advance. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 17:44, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Catalan is also official in Catalonia itself. Does that count? What about West Frisian? That is fairly well documented too, and West Frisian Wikipedia has almost 25000 articles. 17:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Official, in this case, denotes national recognition, which Catalan lacks in Spain. West Frisian WP might be doing well, but if you search a term in West Frisian on bgc, do you get enough non-mention hits to fully cite every term we have in it? --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 17:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This change would count French and Spanish as LDLs (under item 1). &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 18:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I assume it is supposed to mean “native languages of the Americas, etc.”. This should indicated. Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV 18:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That's an oversight - I think the original footnote should be carried over. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 21:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that exclusions should be kept adjacent to the associated inclusions. BTW, Afrikaans can be removed from the #4 exclusions, since none of the #4 inclusions covers it. (Right?) —Ruakh TALK 20:08, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It was getting pretty messy that way. (But you're right about removing Afrikaans.) --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 21:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There are other ways to address messiness. For example, the exclusions could be given as bullet-points right under the corresponding inclusions: The non-extinct Afroasiatic, Khoisan, Niger-Congo, and Nilo-Saharan languages are considered languages with limited documentation, as are Bangime, Dompo, Jalaa, Mbugu, and Sandawe. <li>Exceptions: Arabic, Hebrew, Swahili, Xhosa, and Zulu are all well-documented. Three uses are required for terms in these languages.</li></ul></li></ol> —Ruakh <i >TALK</i > 22:24, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of Catalan's status (or of the existence of Andorra, my apologies, Andorrans!). That can be removed. More importantly, though, this feedback made me realize the inclusions are not longer needed. Languages with official status in Europe can be added to the exclusions and Afrikaans kept, and then the Exclusion List should be adequate. The CFI section will need to be rewritten as well. I'll draft all that up in the next day or so if there are no objections. --BB12 (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Linking to language family categories might be more helpful than linking to ethnologue's pages or Wikipedia articles, by the way. --Yair rand (talk) 23:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If we move to an exclusion list, linking to Wiktionary family categories won't be necessary, but even so, Wiktionary does not provide the necessary language cover. Category:Andamanese_languages does not cover the Ongan languages, for example, and there is no Category:Siangic. BTW, I used Wikipedia links as a general rule, but the Ethnologue when there was any doubt about affiliation. Niger-Congo_languages has a question mark for affiliation with the Mande languages, but the Ethnologue says they are related. (I'm not concerned here with the truth of affiliation, just trying to make a list for our purposes.) --BB12 (talk) 00:21, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * For Inclusion List #1, I would change "languages" to "indigenous languages". For #2, Maltese is an Afroasiatic language, so might not need to be listed, unless you have something somewhere explicitly excluding languages with national official status in Europe. Speaking of official status, I think "national official status" is clearer than "official national status". Also, why is Dacian listed, alone among all the extinct languages of Europe? Chuck Entz (talk) 05:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't want to change it to "indigenous languages," because that rules out languages like Hunsrik. Thank you for Maltese; I'm planning to just use exclusions, so I will have to note it as not being excluded. I agree that "national official status" sounds better and clearer. I will look at that a little more. As per an earlier discussion (Wiktionary_talk:Votes/pl-2010-12/Attestation_of_extinct_languages), Dacian is known only through mentions, not through usage, so not including it here necessarily excludes it completely. A vote is planned to expand the extinct languages. I hope you will join in the discussion when it goes up :)
 * Indigenous can be ambiguous too, because any language becomes indigenous with time. I think 'pre-colonial' or 'non-indo-european' might be a better term. 11:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * But 'pre-colonial' would exclude (most of?) the signed languages. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * FWIW, Hunsrik is Indo-European and sign languages have a separate policy. --BB12 (talk) 15:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, right. I forgot that the SL policy page also includes special attestation rules. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 17:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Help with wiki bot (Java)
Okay, so I decided to try using a bot using Java stuff from here. I've only done a very small few edits with it, through my own account. My intention is to mainly if not exclusively use it to create/fix/standardise some form of entries starting with Icelandic nouns (seeing as I made to handle them, but I do plan to work with other things with it as well. I don't plan on requesting a bot flag for a bot account (when I make it) just yet, seeing as I've got next to nothing working aside from having all the necessary extra java classes set up to be able to be imported to classes I make.

Instead, I'm posting here hoping that someone can help me with a problem that has arisen...when I try to save an entry with the bot if the text contains "special characters" (so far seeing as it's Icelandic I've only tried with ö: and ý:. Here is a bot test edit that should have wrote the text öxl...but as you can see there is a question mark instead of the ö... Does anyone here know what could be going wrong? 50 Xylophone Players talk 01:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm no expert, but usually the problem is that you haven't enabled UTF-8 encoding. (Right, technically minded folks?) --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 01:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well...I don't know if I need to do something like that somewhere else but, in Eclipse ( the Java IDE <-- that's the right term right? that I'm using) I right clicked the Java file that I created to run the bot code in and went to properties and changed encoding to UTF-8 earlier, and that was before (at least one) of the edits that had this problem....:/ 50 Xylophone Players talk 01:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If you're sure it's enabled, I can't explain this phenomenon. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 01:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It sounds like what you did is, you encoded your Java source file — your <tt>*.java</tt> file — in UTF-8? That isn't a problem, but it also doesn't help. Μετάknowledge's point was that, when you're converting back and forth between characters and bytes (conversions between <tt>String</tt> and <tt>byte[]</tt>, or between <tt>InputStream</tt> and <tt>Reader</tt>, or between <tt>OutputStream</tt> and <tt>Writer</tt>), you need to specify a character-encoding of <tt>UTF-8</tt>. Probably the easiest way to do that, in your case, is just to set the default character set to UTF-8, by adding <tt>-Dfile.encoding=UTF8</tt> to the VM arguments. (If you're running the program in Eclipse, you can specify VM args via "Open Run Dialog..." or "Run Configurations...", depending on your version of Eclipse. If you're running it at the command line, just insert <tt>-Dfile.encoding=UTF8</tt> after <tt>java</tt> and before the name of the class.) —Ruakh <i >TALK</i > 05:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * OK WTF...Am I doing something wrong??? I went to run configurations for the project as a whole and I put exactly <tt>-Dfile.encoding=UTF8</tt> in VM arguments but the problem hasn't been resolved....Help??? :/ 50 Xylophone Players talk 15:07, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you show the lines of code that initialise or generate the string that gets corrupted (e.g. are you reading from a file, or extracting from existing entries, or...)? I would imagine the problem is with the way the Java code is handling strings and not with the configuration of the VM itself. Equinox ◑ 15:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Another thing... what you're setting right now is the encoding of the source code, so that would only affect if you write special characters directly in your code. It shouldn't affect how the actual program handles UTF-8 text, at all. Maybe that is your problem? 15:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The entirety of my main method....

<tt>public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception {               MediaWikiBot b = new MediaWikiBot("http://en.wiktionary.org/w/") ; String text = "" ; String formOf = "" ; int index = 0 ; b.login("PalkiaX50", " "); Article entry = b.readContent("User:PalkiaX50/Sandbox") ; text = entry.getText ; //text = replace(text," ","") ; index = text.indexOf("#") ; entry.setMinorEdit(true) ; entry.setEditSummary("test yet again...") ; //formOf = text.substring(index).trim ; //text = replaceTextFromPos(text,"#",inflectionOf(formOf,"kýr")) ; //text = replace(text, "kúm ", " ") ; entry.setText("öxl") ; text = entry.getText ; entry.save ; System.out.println(text) ; }</tt>


 * The comment line are just some stuff I was using to fix entries that I did't use in my latest tests, not that it should matter much I think. Also so notes in reply to what you said, Equinox: while I have some stuff in the source coe as you see with special chars that aren't saving to wikt. right, the odd thing I found is after I perform entry = b.readContent("User:PalkiaX50/Sandbox"), if I print out entry.getText to the console and there were accented letters and such in it they print out fine...However as I've said the problem occurs nonetheless...50 Xylophone Players talk 15:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hm. Instead of doing setText with new text, try just appending to the string that prints correctly: add a dot or something (text + "."). Does that save back to the wiki properly or not? Equinox ◑ 15:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well see, AFAIK, setText is needed because that modifies the text variable/field in the Article object "entry" I guess my variable naming is a little confusing, all the assignments text = foo are to the String variable text in my class, which is, as you can see, eventually used to set the text in the Article object. 50 Xylophone Players talk 15:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * So see if this corrupts the accents or not:


 * Godammit it did it again...see? =/ 50 Xylophone Players talk 15:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, sounds as though the library you are using wasn't designed to support UTF-8 (which is bad, since all Wikimedia wikis use that encoding, according to Meta). Equinox ◑ 15:56, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I find that hard to believe, but at any rate I think I've found something in the libraries that might help...I just need to figure out how to use it. 50 Xylophone Players talk 16:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ugh....this is pissing me off...¬_¬ Does anyone know if there's some shit in Java that maaaaybe I could try to use to get around this by using alternate representations of characters?? Like you know, how for example in unicode chars are represented in a way like "U+XXXX"...Or better yet is there a template or something on wiktionary here (or could one easily be made to do stuff like that) that could do something like this or maybe a template that would be for substing only to display special chars? 50 Xylophone Players talk 17:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It is ages since I wrote Java. But there is a String(byte[], String) constructor that will create a string from the source data bytes and the name of the encoding, so you can safely create a UTF-8 string that way if you can get the original entry contents as bytes rather than a pre-screwed-up string. Equinox ◑ 17:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * @ Palkia: a template is unnecessary, since in text body we can just use <tt>& yacute;</tt> without the space, which produces &yacute;. However, that won't help (AFAIK) for page titles. It's hard to say which will take less time, fixing pages or designing a Java workaround. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 17:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I see, but that looks really ugly in entries though, but it worked!!! See here. Just to clear things up, I think you misinterpreted me a little Equinox; when I use the code to get content from an entry here, if I print out the retrieved content on Eclipse's console for example, the special chars are not screwed up...it seems to be something to do with the saving to that wiki that is where the screwing up is occurring. :/ Hence, as you see I the revision I linked, there were no screw ups.
 * But yeah as I said, that looks kinda ugly in the entries, no? That kinda thing is why I was suggesting a template to subst, or a similar strategy. Oh, and is there anywhere someone could link me to for a nice simple list of these "&XXXX;" codes for chars? Never mind, I actually did find something on Google. 50 Xylophone Players talk 17:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If you really want to subst it (I'll admit, it would be a lot neater), just create subpages, like User:PalkiaX50/yacute, and create each one with the Unicode (U+XXXX, not &XXXX) version of the accented letter as its content. You can just call it by putting <tt> </tt> in the entries. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 01:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you hold off for a week or so? I'll try to spend some time this week playing around with this library and seeing if there's a better way . . . because there really must be. —Ruakh <i >TALK</i > 01:33, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, for now anyway I have made a class of my own to handle the special chars; before saving an entry to wikt my program now runs through the text to be saved, replacing special characters with their HTML codes. It mostly only covers Icelandic atm (and well I guess anything that has some of those chars., e.g. Irish due to acutes) but it's only a matter of adding more chars and their codes as needed. 50 Xylophone Players talk 15:01, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand that you've done that. I'm asking if you're willing to hold off for a week or so, since that is not the best approach. —Ruakh <i >TALK</i > 16:56, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * This JWBF library does support foreign languages. I have done some tests with the <tt>public static void main</tt> example from above: "öxl" (whatever this may be):, and Gothic: . --MaEr (talk) 19:14, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * On a slightly related note, could someone here that's good with templates modify for me, so that it can take an optional parameter indicating that it's being used for a proper noun form? So that it'd make the Category be "Category:Icelandic proper noun forms - xxxx"? 50 Xylophone Players talk 15:24, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ but I'd like somebody to check it, as I'm no template-writing wizard. See Template talk:is-inflection of. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 16:43, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

New update to languages with limited documentation
Following the pass of the vote for languages with limited documentation, Metaknowledge presented me with some additional languages to be added. This resulted in an inclusion list and an exclusion list as described above. As a result of that discussion, it became clear that rather than trying to define which languages can have only one citation, it would be simpler to state which languages have to have three citations (e.g., English, French, etc.). Metaknowledge and I, along with some help from Liliana, have worked up that list of languages.

Because we are going from a list of limited documentation languages to a list of well documented languages, additional wording changes need to be made. But I believe the only substantial changes made as compared to the above discussion are:


 * the elimination of Dacian (to be addressed in a later extinct language vote),
 * the addition of constructed languages, something that had been omitted before, and
 * the change of "appropriate" to "inappropriate" to make it easier for one-citation languages to maintain a list of sources.

There are three parts to this proposal. Hopefully consensus can be reached here.

1. Deletion of Criteria_for_inclusion. It is no longer necessary. (Also the "sign languages" section should have three equal signs instead of four in the Wiki code.)

2. Change from to

3. Deletion of Criteria_for_inclusion/Languages_with_limited_online_documentation, replacing that limited documentation list with a page at Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion/Well_Documented_Languages whose content is as follows (boldfacing showing languages not specifically named before):

end up in the wrong place) a semicolon could be used instead of a newline (as in yours -> possessive pronoun -> Italian)


 * italic
 * Are  equivalent? wouldn't be better to use only one? (I vote for   since it is meant to qualify a translation)


 * examples
 * How to format examples? In would examples are formatted using **

--(Fedso (talk) 20:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC))
 * translations should be short and "template only" (IMHO)
 * It would be great (from a validator point of view) to have only combinations of  and   templates, with commas, semicolons and newlines (*::) to separate/group them. However some cases are excluded (such as the example in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Template:t) so the idea needs some work...:
 * None of these questions have agreed upon answers and standardized formatting for anything beyond "definitions start with #" is likely to be contested. If you try to impose a standard for anything you will run into editors who have been formatting it in their personalized way for years and will resent your attempts at consistency. Sorry to be so negative but you're working against years of path dependence. 70.162.10.166 23:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * ...I love challenges :) however maybe you are too pessimistic, there are already rules: Translations, ELE, Template:t; in the vast majority of cases editors comply with them. I noticed problems arise when, for complex cases, there is no standard and each editor uses the best format he can think of. Since "best" is subjective it is natural to end up with different formats.
 * Said that it is my intention to improve the current standard, not to impose a new one. I think a "good" standard should be naturally adopted with time and shouldn't be set in stone either (software dev. mindset: there is no "perfect", only "good enough" with a moving "enough"). Eventually, I think, a uniform format will also improve readability giving more credit to the great hard work editors are putting in this project.—Fedso (talk) 10:02, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Re italics: should be used, yes.  has been deleted. - -sche (discuss) 00:44, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I am doing something similar, i.e. extracting translations from the dump. You might have a look at User:Matthias Buchmeier/trans-en-es.awk.
 * multi-line: I far as I understand multi-line translations are discouraged.
 * examples: Examples are supposed to be put on the respective non-English language section.
 * t-templates, template only translations: I agree that generally templates should be be used for translations. However there is a problem with Sum-Of-Part (SOP) translations, for which no standard formatting exists. Particularly it's not clear how to add transliterations to SOP-translations and whether to use a template for them. Some SOP-translations are formated with (only Greek), some, others have individually wiki-linked words. Anyhow IMHO the practice of putting transliterations in round brackets is no good idea as in that case there is no easy way to (automatically) identify them as a transliteration.Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 11:14, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There is another thing you could validate for translations: genders. It may be a bit tricky because genders should only be present in noun translations, and generally not in adjective translations. And of course you need to identify which languages have genders and which don't. 11:26, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Update: Thanks for the scripts Matthias, I gave them a good read :) Validator is slowly shaping up and I have a new question about headings:
 * in dog (English section) Noun is a level 3 heading and next one, Synonyms, is level 5. In Entry_layout levels are never skipped but it doesn't actually say that it cannot be done. Your choice, should I make the validator strict of flexible when checking heading levels? —Fedso (talk) 10:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've now corrected the header levels at dog. At one point we had two separate etymology sections, so Noun was a level-4 heading (under ===Etymology 1===). When the second etymology section failed RFV, I guess the subsections within the Noun section never got promoted from level-5 to level-4. —Ruakh <i >TALK</i > 16:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Archaic en-verb.
¶ On the Spanish Wiktionary, we possess an alternative verb template that includes the common -est & -eth forms, so I propose that we permit one here as well. It need not be applied to every English verb, just the ones where the archaic inflexions are attestable. Are there any against this idea ? --Æ&#38;Œ (talk) 23:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This user objecteth not. —Angr 23:20, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

We can entitle the new Template as. I envision the Display in the Entries as :

carry (''second‐person singular simple present carriest, third‐person singular simple present carries or carrieth, present participle carrying, simple past and past participle carried)

This may require a lot of rearranging though. I can attempt to create this Template myself, but even if I could modify the current Templates, I wou’d likely bungle the Set‐ups due to my lack of Experience with the Templates. --Æ&#38;Œ (talk) 13:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you should put (archaic) in front of carriest and carrieth. Siuenti (talk) 17:56, 29 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I think a better name would be eng-verb-arch, which is more mnemonic. Also, I suspect the "/" might cause it to be interpreted as referring to a subtemplate of en-verb called "2". As for format, I like the idea of having pairs of ·modern form·, (archaic) ·old form·, thus: "second‐person singular simple present carry, (archaic) carriest". That would give a better feel of the relation of the old to the new. I don't know what others might think about having so much verbiage in that place, but I could see the archaic template replacing the normal template when used, and having the usual stuff with the old forms integrated into it. The alternative would be using the arch template to provide just the old forms, on a second line. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I seem to think this idea has already been discussed and rejected. Not that it shouldn't be discussed again. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation Request for Comment
You may be aware of the English Wikipedia's blackout to protest the proposed U.S. legislation Stop Online Piracy Act and PROTECT IP Act and the Italian Wikipedia's protest of the proposed Italian legislation DDL intercettazioni. The Wikimedia Foundation wants to know whether the Wikimedia community is willing for it to join an organization called the Internet Defense League, which has the professed aim of co&ouml;rdinating more such protests. Unfortunately, the Foundation representatives only directly notified that part of the community that is on the English Wikipedia. &#9786; The RFC, on Meta, is hyperlinked above. Uncle G (talk) 11:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Requests for comment/Internet Defense League
 * Thanks for informing people about the RfC. Just a quick remark that it is not true that "the Foundation representatives only directly notified that part of the community that is on the English Wikipedia" - this was posted on Wikimedia-l (formerly Foundation-l), quite the usual venue for such issues, and on the "Wikimedia Forum" on Meta. Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 15:23, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither of which is a direct notificiation here at Wiktionary, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Centralized_discussion&diff=499783385&oldid=499733974 like the English Wikipedia got from Foundation representatives] . One person on the English Wikinews has already pointed you to direct. Even now, the non-English Wiktionaries haven't been notified.  Uncle G (talk) 14:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * @Uncle G: You must be missing the point. The notification was only for insiders, not for the community at large. If it were, there would have been some effort to get beyond the modest numbers of subscribers (and even-more-modest number or readers) to the list. DCDuring TALK 14:22, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Well documented languages - revision
After the vote for well documented languages began, controversy over whether a list of inappropriate or appropriate sources should be kept (for one-source words) led me to modify and reset the vote using "appropriate" (no change from the current rule with respect to that aspect). The vote can still be found at Votes/2012-06/Well Documented Languages. Please vote! --BB12 (talk) 01:30, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Conjugation tables
Related, or even as an alternative, to #Archaic_en-verb: the German Wiktionary has entire conjugation tables like de:melt (Konjugation) and de:be (Konjugation). These tables are incorrect in places ("have been been"), but if we could design correct tables, would it be desirable to include them in entries (in the way we include French verbs' conjugations), or on subpages (as de.Wikt does) or in appendices (as fr.Wikt does)? The tables could also contain archaic forms, like "beest"/"meltest" and "beeth"/"melteth". If nothing else, we should consider having three such tables in appendices: one of be, one as a model of transitive verb conjugation (with a "have been [past participle]" form), and one as a model of intransitive verb conjugation (without such a form). - -sche (discuss) 06:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Subpages are nice but they would have to have language sections themselves for when the inflection of more than one language is shown. 10:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC)