Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2023/July

suicide
RFV of etym. Were these really coined by Browne? OED dates the Latin word to 12c. 蒼鳥 fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong. 08:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Rewritten and cited the etym on both pages according to the source I found. Please edit further if you can provide more information. 蒼鳥 fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong. 08:05, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I see that you removed the -cide mention. I added it as “See ”, because the sense “A person who has intentionally killed themself” is not from (using, not ). That sense is by analogy with the other sense of English  (from ). J3133 (talk) 08:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you for the reminder; I added it back. 蒼鳥 fawk. tell me if i did anything wrong. 09:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

געבעקס
Yes I did just create this page, but the word is well-attested and found even on the Yiddish-language Wikipedia (albeit without its own article). Any clues as to where the trailing -s comes from compared to 🇨🇬? Could it be a Poylish innovation? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It occurs in sub-standard German:, , (which is only  in my regiolect), and see also  and . Fay Freak (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting. In that case it looks like . We say and I would accept neuter  (haven't found ein, das ~ in DTA erweitert) following diminutive . See also.
 * On the other hand, when working over and other forms like  I had either missed or dismissed and forgotten the etymology from . Where is this change regular,  maybe? 88.128.92.153 15:35, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Παναγιώτης
Seems easy - greek "Παν αγιώτης" - 'All Saints' or 'wholy Saint'? 46.187.50.77 18:35, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Trying to cobble together bits from Greek Wiktionary, it seems to be a male variant of Παναγία (Panagía), Virgin Mary. Wakuran (talk) 19:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Link: . --Lambiam 22:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * would be more convincing if there was a Greek word . Note that Ancient Greek had a suffix . --Lambiam 22:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Since it is a personal name, "dedicated to All Saints" is more likely. 24.108.18.81 22:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * All Saints’ Day is called Άγιοι Πάντες in Greek, literally meaning “All Saints”. * is very ungrammatical, using a neuter singular pronoun to modify a plural masculine noun. There is an adjective πανάγιος, meaning something like “holiest of holy”. It is an intensified form of, formed with the prefix .  --Lambiam 23:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

דישען
Trying to connect it to 🇨🇬 would be a bit dubious, because of the N and T. 🇨🇬 is the most likely to me, but U => I is unexplained (maybe via Ü?), and it might have entered Polish from Yiddish instead of the other way round. And 🇨🇬 makes no sense in more ways than one. Any ideas? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ? Annecdotally, gravy is called, apparently something to dip in, to dunk, so must be related to , to dive, and , to dub, which looks like a mess of back and forth borrowing. See also , obviously related to meal so the muzzlebag etymology is irrelevant. See also , southern Topfengolatschen (aka. Quarktasche). 176.74.57.162 10:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A few observations. Whilst some kind of relation cannot be ruled out, seems to have a very dubious connection to the rest of those terms, though it may conceivably be a borrowing ultimately from a Frankish equivalent to the Old English and Old High German ancestor root. Furthermore, I doubt a rigorous close connection between  (a vulgar word for mouth) /  (see detailed etymology there) and English  can be established. For the purposes of this discussion,  has two etymologically distinct senses which would respectively connect to either German  (i.e. that which has been milled c.f., , ) or , as in . As for the Yiddish term, perhaps some useful information can be gleaned here (or perhaps from vol. 1 and vol. 2 of the same work). The Polish form seems to be the only Slavic cognate with the sense 'stew', though Czech also has the sense 'steam'. As for connecting it to German, you'd probably need a bit more information to make the call with any certainty and we are constantly reminded that this is not a place for original research. Yet, explaining u or ü ⇾ i is probably the easiest part. Referring to the chart of vowel correspondences at , we see that Standard German short ü /ʏ/ corresponds to /ɪ/ in 4 of the main Yiddish dialects and Standard German short u /ʊ/ also coincides with Yiddish /ɪ/ in Central and South-Eastern dialects. According to the Duden,  derives from , this is also the general line taken by Pfeifer. So you potentially have either option to work with. However, that still leaves two big leaps: 1) st ⇾ sh (I'm not strong on Yiddish historic or dialectal sounds changes) and 2) socalled "n-Ausfall", or elision of the nasal consonant. This process has occurred in some Germanic languages (particularly English, Dutch and North Germanic) but I am not sure that the time period fits or whether Yiddish is at all concerned. Helrasincke (talk) 15:17, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

फुल्ल
Though the etymology of this word is sited as Proto-Indo-Iranian, there is no Indo-Iranian form given, not even a redlink. Does anyone know what the PII form would be? 2600:1700:3287:E000:1878:7F15:3AC4:A733 08:26, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, it's got a geminate ll and an initial voiceless aspirate, two important signs that it didnt develop regularly from PIE. I would have to assume that this is a loanword from a dialect that didnt shift /l/ > /r/, and the usual explanation for word-initial voiceless aspirates in Sanskrit is w:s-mobile, but Im not sure that can explain every example, since they also   occur in words claimed to be Dravidian loans. In any case, we may not be able to reconstruct a Proto-Indo-Iranian form, because from what I understand the /l/ > /r/ shift had already happened by that time. — Soap — 08:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰleh₃- posits as the ancestor of, but of course that won't work, as it would actually have given something like *bhrāra, which could have been dissimilated to *bhrāla or *bhlāra, but couldn't possibly have given phulla. Connecting phulla with  looks tempting on the surface, but Indo-Europeanists have known for at least the last 150 years that it just isn't possible. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I wonder if there's any chance that it's related to proto-Dravidian pū or (less likely) to ? I only spent a few minutes looking here ... as I like to say, it's very low-hanging fruit to just look up the word for flower in various languages of India ... but still it's the first thing I thought of, and I do know I've seen at least one example of a Dravidian loanword into Sanskrit gaining word-initial aspiration, though I dont have it close at hand. — Soap — 12:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

גרײַז
I've looked long and far and couldn't find any sort of Germanic cognate for this. 🇨🇬 gives the colour, and 🇨🇬 gives "horror", not "mistake". No Slavic language (nor Hebrew) uses "gray" metaphorically to mean "mistake" either, so it's very unlikely to be some sort of semantic calque.

This link provides the phrase "נח מיט זיבן גרייזן", and the site also gives "נח מיט זיבן קרייזן", a phrase that is very similar in spelling but different in meaning. Would it be farfetched to say that גרײַז is a back-formation of גרײַזן, which itself was a typo/misspelling/mispronunciation of קרײַזן, and hence the meaning "mistake/error" was derived? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2023 (UTC)


 * How are you getting semantically from "circles" to "mistakes"? If we could get from "gray" to "mistake" semantically (which I agree is pretty unlikely), the ancestor would presumably be (< ) rather than  (< ). Actually, considering  carries connotations of senility, perhaps it was substantivized as 'senile person' > 'person prone to make mistakes' > 'mistake'? Still pretty far-fetched, I guess. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Max Weinreich writes: "For the word grayz (mistake) we have not yet found a more plausible etymology than Zunz’s idea of 1832 about gryˤvθ (mistake). Vahag (talk) 10:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * looks like a feminine plural of something, but I don't know what. Something from (compare  and ), perhaps? —Mahāgaja · talk 10:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mahagaja I'm not so much going from "circles", but rather to the possibility that someone may have misspelled or mispronounced קרײַזן to sound/read like "groyz", and then that action of making a mistake in itself became the meaning of גרײַזן, that which later became codified as part of regular vocabulary in Yiddish (like how English "oll korrect", which was coined as kind of a joke, became okay). Extremely farfetched, like I mentioned earlier, but I'm just throwing out ideas because 🇨🇬 is as much of a dead end as Grau is. In some ways maybe paralleling English where people might say "pulling a XXX", with XXX being the name of an entity who was famous for doing a certain thing. I also have almost no knowledge of Hebrew at all, and I don't know how one would derive "ײַ" from Slavic. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 14:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Yanny
It probably comes from noise in a re-recording of the word "laurel". I'm not sure if that's the original etymology, though. Orisphera2 (talk) 18:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe, whose oblique forms are all ? —Mahāgaja · talk 19:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Laurel? There are a bunch of variants of the name John/ Johannes/ Yochanan, though, which I instinctively would consider as probable., Wakuran (talk) 22:19, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * See Yanny or Laurel. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yanny is definitely a transliteration of Γιάννη here, written before Edison's invention of the phonograph. The same Yanny is seen even earlier in a German news article. And here it is a Russian female given name, probably also a nickname. Compare also the almost homophonic Afrikaans/Danish/Dutch name Jannie. BTW, a cursory Google search shows that Yanny is more often a surname. --Lambiam 23:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

היפּש
Any ideas? For all I could find, I'm not sure where the word could have come from, and I'm not sure how it would be possible to go semantically from 🇨🇬 to "considerable". But it's the closest I've got phonologically. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:41, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure that a semantic change from 'pretty' to 'fairly, considerably' is attested in other languages. In a language that doesn't distinguish adverbs and adjectives morphologically, it's not a far reach from an adverb 'fairly, considerably' to an adjective 'considerable, sizable'. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:15, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mahagaja: I suppose if we look at it taking the English sense into account then it makes sense. I was more thinking about the "physically attractive" part rather than specifically "pretty". But is it attested in Eastern European forms of Yiddish, or is this an Americanism? The author of the quote in the entry has been in the States for a long time after all, and the quote itself talks about the US. The semantic shift could be a calque from English. The online Verterbukh only gives "considerable" as a definition and doesn't mention any archaic definition of "pretty" or "handsome". Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It isn't only English, though. also means 'really, pretty [adv.]', especially in the collocation ganz schön. For example, in English you can say something is "pretty ugly" without oxymoron; in German, "ganz schön hässlich" is exactly the same. What I wonder is whether  is attested as an adverb as well. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mahagaja The Polish page for lists both znaczny (adjective) and znacznie (adverb) as its meaning, so I would guess it's both attested as adverb and adjective. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Then in my opinion there's nothing standing in the way of saying it's a straightforward cognate of . The phonology is impeccable and the semantics seem reasonable. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, although it isn't in English Wiktionary, German Wiktionary's definition of hübsch includes a sense "of a not insignificant size" with the example "Mit der Zeit hatte sich ein hübsches Sümmchen angesammelt" ("With time, a sizable little sum had accumulated"), which seems to match the Yiddish exactly. The only difference is that in Yiddish, all other senses have (apparently) been lost. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know for sure whether the other senses have been lost - I just have yet to find any (possibly archaic) quotations that do use it to mean physically attractive. "sizeable/considerable" does seem to be the dominant meaning of the word in Yiddish, it just appears that the specialization of the word went in different directions with German and Yiddish. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And also has the sense "Moderately large; considerable". —Mahāgaja · talk 21:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not going to stand in the way but the required hyper-correction from and the missing polysemy in Yiddish strikes me as unlikely. The evidence from modern German ("eine hübsche Stange Geld") is probably too late and may as well have come from Yiddish by coincidence. The origin of  too is neither here nor there. 88.128.92.19 11:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * 1. What about onomastics, the linguist Hübschmann, is that a self chosen Prunkname when jews were required to take on familynames? Going through DFD (Digitales Familiennamenwörterbuch Deutschlands) there are Hubacz from Slovak Hubač "Großmaul"; Hubbertz or Hubertus OHG hugu and beraht or cognate Old Saxon; Huber from MHG huobe, MLG hove (cf. Hufe) or MHG hover as byform to hocker, hoger; &c. We do have adverbial vel sim. hence my curiosity. The toponymic names conform to the current etymology of hübsch. The by-forms with g very much suggest, bugger. That's a huge sum of nomy. I guess Hugh Jackass is an old hat. The parallel to adverbial  might instead suggest an early germanized variant of Kowalski, doesn't it?!
 * 2. sounds similar and, while unexplained, connecting it here pressumably requires that -sch could ready stand for -ig, -ich when adverb inflection was changing away from MHG -e, -liche (cp. English -y, -ly) suggestive of a snobby snuffed nasal e with /ŋ⁠/ as diminutive, compare  (cute, acute, prescious, little goldylocks) instead of golden. Ignoring that rebracketing from -ig + -lich was possible, now proscribed, it makes sense to compare that to gleich, ähnlich – like, alike, thus "gold alike". I have no better explanation for the euphemism . Corrolary, it's perky and purty instead of pretty (cp. ). See also  ("esp. to or about an attractive woman", Collins English Dictionary),  (id.) like, {{m|ang|brydguma}. So  and  go along as well. I mean, the common denominator of chubby and pretty is the ideal Ruben model.
 * 3. heavy, or  are of interrest as well.
 * I have no time to work it out, sorry. 88.128.92.19 11:00, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

וואָלקעלאַק
The word itself is pretty clear. But in the quotation, where does come from? It's spelt phonetically so it can't be Hebrew. But I can't find any Germanic or Slavic cognates either. I suspect the "ויער" component could be cognate to some German(ic) "ohr" but that's all I got. Maybe something to do with and 🇨🇬 somehow? I mean, the translations tab lists auf dem Kopf as one of the German translations of "upside down". Insaneguy1083 (talk) 03:21, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It is temptingly close to, isn't it? But alas, not close enough for a connection to be plausible. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:27, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I found this quote from a Forverts article:
 * די מחברטע האָט דערקלערט, אַז זי האָט, בעצם, געשאַפֿן אַ „קינדער-בוך אויף קאַפּויער‟.
 * Not sure if this helps at all, but we can see that קאַפּויער is used with אויף. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:53, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Hmm, maybe this is mostly thinking aloud, but I thought about אײַער (ayer), as in 'head of yours', but it's a plural or polite form, and it could be dubious from several phonetic and syntactical aspects... Wakuran (talk) 09:41, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Is Kapoyer not related to kapoyres? Kapoyre means also a kind of heathen person (like in jokes also), like the Moslemanic word qafir. See also 🇨🇬. Tollef Salemann (talk) 23:23, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, so it's something like "not kosher"... Wakuran (talk) 02:03, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It is very normal (at least in Eurasia) to call real and mythological creatures after their qualities (like so-called "noa-name"), so Kapoyer can mean some soul-damaged or evil creature. It may be a Slavic calque or some loan from Talmud. I am also not sure if the term volkolak can be allways translated as a usual English werewolf, because it has very different meaning in different areas (Romania, Balkan, Ukraine etc), and maybe also had not the same meaning in all the Jewish shtetels. Tollef Salemann (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Although "kapoyer" here clearly refers to the opening scene, not the werewolf/ creature. Wakuran (talk) 10:24, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hah yeah, my bad, in the quote they use it about the scene. It is adjective/adverb, like Moyshe Kapoy(e)r, with the Germanic ending -er. It means upside-down or backwards, pretty sure it is from Hebrew or Aramaic. Can't find any normal etymology on it, although it is discussed on some forums (like Quora), but it is very weird to derive it from פרץ or 🇨🇬 like they do. Tollef Salemann (talk) 10:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, the reference to the sushi-meser would indicate that it is a fairly modern text, so the connotations of volkolak might be closer to the werewolves of current Western pop culture than traditional mythology... Wakuran (talk) 15:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Volkelak in Yiddish is used at least in 1864 tho. Tollef Salemann (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This might be slightly nitpicking at this point, but while the connection to does seem very plausible, I would've thought Hebrew loanwords would not be spelt phonetically? Or at least it would be spelt with the Hebrew component non-phonetically, since  is clearly Germanic. I know there are some Hebrew loanwords that are spelt phonetically but I don't know for sure whether this is one of those. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There are a few Hebrew loanwords that are spelled phonetically, especially when there has been enough semantic drift that the connection to the Hebrew source is no longer recognized. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I know I've seen some. That said, I just don't see any way to get semantically from a plural noun meaning "scapegoat chickens" to an adverb meaning "upside down". —Mahāgaja · talk 12:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Only way i can imagine is semantic shift from 'כפורא' (heathen) into 'denier' or 'opposing' and so into 'backwards'. Moyshe Kapoyer is what you call a person who doing and saying stuff in a wrong way or order. See also Klein Dictionary כְּפִירָה. Tollef Salemann (talk) 13:16, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

sool
Aus/NZ verb: "sool the dogs on someone", to set (or sic) the dogs on them. Possibly from Irish verb siúil, "to walk", which admittedly seems a bit lacking in imperative force, but can be used more forcefully (I think) as in, for instance, the title of the song "siúil a rún" (Go, my love...") Sclameneen (talk) 03:26, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I have trouble believing that any variety of English word borrow as "sool" and not as "shool". —Mahāgaja · talk 06:28, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Swedish has sula (to chuck, throw), but it might well be unrelated. Stated to be from at least the 70's, but not present in SAOB from 1997, for some reason. Wakuran (talk) 09:38, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I dimly remember "sool" being used in some Irish play, in that form. 24.108.18.81 16:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Susan Butler, The dinkum dictionary : the origins of Australian words, mentions that it was formerly used more broadly, with examples of women sooling soldiery on to go fight in a war, plus a case where an animal "scratches and sools its way back into the match"; she also says it could formerly mean "to run away" or "scarper", and that "'to sool along' [was] to travel at a fast pace and 'to sool off' [was] to disappear at speed". She derives it from British dialectal sowl ("to pull by the ears"), although I wonder whether at least some of the other senses might have a different origin. - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

־ינקע
Clearly a combination of Germanic and Slavic. I wonder however whether we should start considering it a separate suffix unto itself? I've seen the two suffixes combined together in enough places (e.g. ) to feel like it's become codified as its own suffix (cf. 🇨🇬). Edit: just found out that 🇨🇬 exists. Could be descended from just that? I mean, we have from 🇨🇬 and. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 05:00, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The /n/ that gave us -nik shows reflexes in some western Slavic languages that retain the preceding vowel, so it's possible that both morphemes could be Slavic, and that this could be the origin of -enka and its kin as well. Though that's just a guess.  — Soap — 05:05, 10 July 2023 (UTC)


 * FWIW, diminutive -ke could also be, or be influenced by, Germanic. Indeed, I can find sources which treat -ke as a "convergence" of the Slavic and Germanic suffixes, and also which do treat the 'compound' suffix -inke as a unit, e.g. Gertrud Reershemius, "Yiddish", in Yaron Matras and Jeanette Sakel, Grammatical Borrowing in Cross-Linguistic Perspective (2008), page 249: § 3.4. Diminutives:
 * Diminutive suffixes -inke, -enyu, -ke, as for example in muminke 'dear/little aunt', tatenyu 'dear/little father' or Avromke 'dear/little Abraham' (here convergence with a Germanic-component suffix -ke) are borrowed from Slavic languages. (see Weinreich 1980: 531)
 * If there are multiple examples of words with -inke (and especially if there are any where the form with just -in isn't used), it seems reasonable to consider it a suffix. - -sche (discuss) 17:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

טראַף
Hate to be making two consecutive posts, but I'm absolutely clueless on this one. It's attested in the Verterbukh as well, and even has a Yiddish-language Wikipedia article. Considered all the possible consonant alternations and vowel lowering, and all the words I've come up with seem way too far for a semantic shift. It also boggles the mind why they didn't simply borrow the Latin/Ancient Greek word like German did, but that's beside the point. If I'm missing something super obvious do let me know. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 05:36, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmm, related to German Treff, as a hit/ rhythmic beat, or would that be too semantically far-fetched? I guess there could also be some phonetic/ folk-etymological connection to טראַף (trop). Wakuran (talk) 10:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I wonder if a syllable is a single letter in dotless Hebrew it could be synonym. is making a point in fencing for example, a score or scratch, a iota, or maybe פתוח and thus פתות, not quite a trifle. 79.197.188.62 15:53, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * R:yi:CYED says it also means "second stage of learning to read in the traditional Jewish school", which means there's a strong possibility this is a Hebrew or Aramaic loanword, even though it's spelled phonetically. I don't know what word would be the source, though. It's certainly not the normal Hebrew word for "syllable". —Mahāgaja · talk 11:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Above probably intended פתו and פתח (or תוהו, Tohuwabohu).
 * Seeing the sense of punctuation is borrowed from Arabic, there is also taraf that could mean section. 62.214.191.67 13:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * See طرف. Wakuran (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Do we perhaps have a Hebrew cognate of this? Because otherwise I can't really think of a historically sensical way that this Arabic word could've entered Yiddish, since it's not found in any of the usual suspects (German, Slavic, French, etc.). Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:20, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a borrowing by Ottoman Turkish, which tends to make its way into Eastern European etymologies fairly often. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * To be fair we do have which came from Turkish via Romanian so it's not totally unthinkable... (cf. 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬) Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

עריבער
Found in the quotation of. Variation of, variation of , or its own thing entirely? Google Translate gives me 🇨🇬 as a cognate, but 1. Wiktionary doesn't have the prefix ; 2. Is it a thing for the initial D (haha drifting jokes etc) to just disappear in dialectal speech? Also, on the topic of - did it ever have the meaning of "above it" like  does, or did it specialize and lose that meaning very quickly? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 10:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The quote is from ; the first word in the sentence is with an initial ד. It's just a copy-and-paste error at , which I'll fix right now. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

elleskapi
The shape and distribution of dialectal (variants:, , , , ) suggests borrowing from (Norrbotten/Västerbotten?) Swedish, but I can't found a suitable etymon (something like ). I can't rule out a pseudo-Swedishism from /, although that would seem unlikely. Any ideas? &mdash; S URJECTION / T / C / L / 20:42, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * A likely guess, jävelskap. Wakuran (talk) 22:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Elakskap? Tollef Salemann (talk) 23:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, the most natural native construction is elakhet, so it sounds a bit strained. Wakuran (talk) 02:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I know, but i heard it from a northern Swedish person, so may be it is more common to use this word up there instead of elakhet. I reckon, you know better. Tollef Salemann (talk) 08:19, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright. I'm not too familiar with Northern Swedish varieties, although I think that the stress of -lak- would rather have produced something like *lakki(s)kaapi. Anyway, Finnish knowledge of Swedish generally seems rather passive and imprecise to me, so it's not improbable there might have been a bit of mangling and folk etymologies involved. Wakuran (talk) 10:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's entirely possible that both of those are sources as well as folk-etymological changes incurred by the terms I mentioned in my original post. &mdash; S URJECTION / T / C / L / 11:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't hear no stress on -lak- by some reason, so am not sure what you mean. Must try ask some Finns what they hear there when Swedes say it. Stresses across Sweden and Finland may differ depend on region. Tollef Salemann (talk) 14:58, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I stress the syllable in my sloppy Stockholm accent, but I might be over-analyzing things... Wakuran (talk) 15:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

סיגנאַציע
I feel really stupid with this one because it's CLEARLY of Latin origin, yet I could not for the love of me find any 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬 or anything of the sort. There's 🇨🇬, but even the entry says that it is obsolete. And even if 🇨🇬 does exist, I don't find it very plausible that Yiddish would borrow directly from Latin without any intermediate. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Do we know thw stress? is similar to  . English is occasionally a donor, and a signature characteristic of banknotes is that they carry the signature of the issuing bank's cashier or president.  --Lambiam 10:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If you look up in R:yi:CYED, it points you to, so it seems to be a Yiddish-internal .  has a historical sense that fits perfectly with the Yiddish. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * We ought to have an entry for, which is not only historically attested in that sense (e.g. here), but also seen with an apparently different sense in the compound here.  --Lambiam 11:47, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So does have the same meaning as  by itself? Should they be considered variants of each other (or maybe the aphetic form a variant of the original)? It also appears that  means "universal healthcare", so I can add that later. Edit: just healthcare. Not universal. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 10:03, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * אַסיגנאַציע seems to mean the same thing; It also looks like it's more frequent in use, although both are rare enough online that it might not be representative of the actual usage. Thadh (talk) 10:35, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you certain that the direction of borrowing wasn't the other way around? Nicodene (talk) 10:46, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Added the stress. Thadh (talk) 10:28, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Battenberg
RFV of the etymology. Can it be confirmed that the first element of the compound is the obsolete dialectal verb ? —Mahāgaja · talk 12:21, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pretty unlikely. There's a lot of speculation in old 19th/early 20th century sources but an up-to-date suggestion for the etymon seems to be the personal name Batto < : "'Bettenberg' wird im Lorscher Codex 788 erstmals erwähnt, 1375 heißt es Battenberg. Der Name bedeutet Heim des Batto, der Ortsname entsteht über die Genitivbildung Bettin" from p. 223. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 11:42, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

まーすん -- problematic reconstructions for Proto-Ryukyuan, Proto-Japonic in the etyms for Kunigami and Okinawan
The etyms there trace 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬 to 🇨🇬 (also for 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬), in turn sourcing the Proto-Ryukyuan from 🇨🇬, and deriving Hachijō 🇨🇬 from that as well.

Various issues here.


 * Proto-Ryukyuan
 * There is no known mechanism for producing Proto-Ryukyuan mawar- from Proto-Japonic mar-. Japonic word formation happens via compounding and suffixation primarily.  Infixes don't really happen (can't think of any examples at all at the moment).


 * Proto-Japonic
 * I am not aware of any Proto-Japonic verb root *mar- meaning "to die". Hachijō marubu is cognate with mainland, an apophonic form of  meaning "to fall, to tumble, to fall over", with a semantic shift of "to fall" → "to die", as indeed we see in certain contexts in English even, where  is used to mean .  In turn, Japanese marobu appears to be from noun  + suffix .  The only Japanese verb with root form mar- is.


 * Ryukyuan roots
 * Poking around on JLect, their entry for まーすん traces that to cognacy with Japanese and/or, with no mention of any root mar-.

Is our etymology, tied to 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬, sourced from any publications? If so, do those authors address these issues above in any way? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Just realized I'd forgotten about the related discussion from a couple years back at Talk:まるぶ, for those interested. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:39, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * he's the one who did this entry in the first place.
 * What is the Proto-Japonic form for OJ maro2 and EOJ maru, modern Japanesee, along with PR ? Next, searching on Okinawa-go Jiten Data Shuu, this verb had an irregular conjugation (see here; also JLect entry for maasun), but has the same pitch accent as maas(h)un. In my local copy of , it mentions maa・sun 'to die; pass away; perish; expire.', but not *maasun 'to spin' (transitive). In the section of the Etymology Scriptorium I rejected Vovin's PJ  and Pre-PJ *wasar being borrowed into Korean; the opposite hypothesis is preferred. So therefore there is no PJ for Okinawan maasun. Spin in index p. 296 only has maain and miguin, not transitive but are equivalents to  and . PJ form for meguru is  (whence OJ me2guru); possibly from ; the earliest senses excluding Heian period Shoki glosses (glossed as  and Saibara texts (appears from at least Heian period) are form a circle and walk around. Eyes might be round but I don't know how this is. Regardless, this is the PJ form. The transitive is.
 * Conclusion:
 * There is no Proto-Japonic for PR . We have to analyze the cognates mentioned in the JLect entry in order to precisely reconstruct a PR form. Wish that the Ryukyu-go Onsei Database reopened earlier than 2023 (because I'm too lazy to google book snippet view search the Ryukyuan terms; also they are renovating and including more Ryukyuan dialects).
 * But please continue the discussion. Chuterix (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * (this is my worst day ever for etymologies, especially like this...) Chuterix (talk) 01:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Since we cannot say with any certainty how or if Okinawan maasun "to die" might be related to maasun "to turn something" and/or maain "to turn" (intransitive), we cannot say with any certainty that there is no reconstructable Proto-Japonic for this term. All we know at this point is that we don't know.
 * As the Okinawago jiten dēta-shū entry for マーシュン says (topmost here at Jlect):
 * "回す. 回転させる. また,次から次へ回す. ただしmaasjuN（死ぬ）の語感をさけるため,migurasjuNを多く使う."
 * In other words, maasun "to turn something" was avoided in favor of migurasun, due to the homophony with maasun "to die".
 * Further research is needed to determine whether this overlap represents a change in sense, or an accidental phonological similarity caused by unrelated terms shifting into homophonous forms.
 * All that said, it does sound like we need to amend our entries at まーすん. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Update: What about some dead conjugation of unattested *mawar-as-. I do not have time at the noment to look at other Ryukyuan cogs ATM. Chuterix (talk) 22:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This reconstruction is totally unsourced. I've made this user page for all possible Ryukyuan cognates that I can find. Hachijo marub- is totally unrelated; Eirikr is right (it suggests pJ ) that it must have been a form of marob-.
 * The internal peculiarities: The Oshima dialect Yamatohama appears like pR *mawari-si, which seems to tie in with . The same goes for the Tokunoshima dialect. Meanwhile, in Okinoerabu, the i has been completely lost (but soon I may add irrealis conjugations to give more internal peculiarities). In Yoron Higashi-ku dialect, there's /moojuN/ homophonous with 'to turn', and the i for /moisjuN/ is still there. Thus, it may be certain that the Amami forms goes back to *mawar(i)(si). The Yonaguni form also preserves the high vowel. The Okinawan terms seem to have simplified to *mawa for unknown reason (borrowing?). In Miyako, there is a limited distribution, in Hirara (retrieved from Nevsky's dictionary), it seems to be from *mawari-sam-ar-i, but it is not completely clear, as the Nakachi form lost the z (may phonetically be [ɿ]), and Nakachi does not have the *-sam-ar-i suffix. Tarama might have derived straight from *mawar-, the same way the archaic Yoron term has. The Nuclear-Yaeyama terms can be derived straight from *mawar-as-, as opposed to what dictionaries like Ishigaki and Hatoma dictionaries say derive from.
 * Thus, Kwékwlos's reconstruction may actually be correct, minus the fact that every verb stem he creates has the infinitive *-i, but it is certainly an innovation in Ryukyuan, and cannot go back to Proto-Japonic.
 * The JLect entry mentioned also echoes my reconstruction of *mawar(i)(si), although I can account for the peculiarities just explained. Chuterix (talk) 23:49, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * One surface analysis could connect it to, but the accentual register is all wrong (*mawa(ri)(si) is tone class A, which corresponds to Japanese high register, but mairu is the low register). And this does not explain the Amami forms in this impossible case. Chuterix (talk) 23:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * One surface analysis could connect it to, but the accentual register is all wrong (*mawa(ri)(si) is tone class A, which corresponds to Japanese high register, but mairu is the low register). And this does not explain the Amami forms in this impossible case. Chuterix (talk) 23:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

פּאָרצעלײַ
Where did the -n go? I'd like to suggest conflation with 🇨🇬 but that might be a bit farfetched... Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * All I can think is that the -n was reinterpreted as the adjectival ending (compare the adjective ) and thus removed by . But that's pure speculation. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:44, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Arabic دان ("to borrow, lend")
The Persian entry for دین (deyn, "loan, debt") suggests Ancient Greek δάνειον, but the Arabic entry does not mention this. The shorter δάνος could also mean 'loan, debt'... Exarchus (talk) 22:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The way formulated the, it makes sense how specific “loan” and “obligation” senses arose from Arabic, and Semitic, senses of socially enforced legal conduct, and we are sufficiently warned that there are “multiple layers of phono-semantic matching” between languages. You might opine that this does not absolve us from specifically mentioning the specific layer of , as influence is still assumed in this century; dayn and hence some denominative verb would be “not identical” in root with that of  and  according to.
 * But these people restricting Arabic literature to the Qurʾān however, in this paucity of corpus, necessarily see more aporiai than the actual language had, nor do they even understand what religion even is—sets of tenets to manipulate behaviour by arguing with them and quarantine violators from the group it governs, like law. In this fashion one may come to the conclusion of the manifestly rightly forgotten Italian jurist Evaristo Carusi that actually Muḥammad or Islam put forward “nothing new, certainly in particular in the field of law”, and instead the religion just transcoded Roman or Byzantine law, which is recognized as untenable view by, as well as impossible his etymologies = δάνειον,  = , and  = . The etymology in question was also criticized by , who is much more a genius, in , exposing even more janky comparisons.
 * It is then likely that this suggestion slopped over into Iranian works on language from some crackpot book, and fittingly this derivation of dayn from δάνειον on the Persian page . Fay Freak (talk) 03:15, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Rhinozeta (protist)
Rhinozeta is the type genus of the protist family Rhinozetidae. The prefix Rhino recalls the rhinoceros in which this organism lives. But what does zeta mean? that we also find in the species Elephantophilus zeta (family of Polydiniellidae). Here, in my opinion, Zeta has nothing to do with the last letter of the Greek alphabet but would have the meaning "to seek" in one case "I am looking for rhinoceros (to live there)" in the other "I am looking for elephants (for the same thing). What is your opinion? Thanks. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:34, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not an answer to your question, just wanting to point out that zeta is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet, not the last. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's another possibility than a derivation from (the root of) ζητέω. I suppose the suffix is Latin -idus. Exarchus (talk) 14:53, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Using Greek letters in taxonomic names isn't that uncommon, so it can't be categorically ruled out. I would also mention that in  means "of the nose", as in "nose-horned", though the association of the organism with the rhinoceros makes that reading less likely. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:22, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * English names of Greek letters are common in virology, eg, Dyozetapapillomavirus 1. DCDuring (talk) 02:53, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * A paper in this volume describes Elephantophilus zeta as characterised by a "Z-shaped macronucleus", so apparently it is in fact the letter that's intended. Rhinozeta may have been named by analogy—I had a look at the paper describing the species and genus, and it doesn't explain the name specifically but does reference Elephantophilus zeta. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 17:51, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Great research. Good catch. DCDuring (talk) 02:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks you all. Gerardgiraud (talk) 09:00, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Albanianː padi ("indictment")
It appears to be a borrowed word, but I’m not sure which language it was borrowed from. Or perhaps it’s an Albanian word derived from meaning "without" (widely used to form Albanian words) and  meaning "to know", and related to, but that doesn’t seem to make sense. Thanks in advanceǃ FierakuiVërtet (talk) 17:35, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It's from Slavic it seems. Catonif (talk) 09:07, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Feminine form of דאָקטער
I saw a post online that claimed the feminine form of to be, which is obviously from 🇨🇬. Should it be added here as or, or both? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Both are used on the Internets, so may add one of them as an alternative form of one other? Tollef Salemann (talk) 22:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * So Yiddish wouldn't use the -in feminine ending like German? Just wondering... Wakuran (talk) 23:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It does; a cursory search on Google found the phrases and . Both from Forverts no less. So I suppose Yiddish has four different ways to describe female doctors. Update: I also found  and . So that's six. Can someone who knows how to work with templates add an "f3" field for yi-noun? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 01:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

פֿאָך
A lot of evidence suggesting this is probably cognate to 🇨🇬, but are there other cases of a g >> /χ/ shift in Yiddish? Also, in the prefix of, is the prefix being used here? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm unaware of any case of Yiddish coming from MHG g, and also any case of Yiddish  coming from MHG w. Also, the two words don't mean the same thing; the Yiddish word is a wave of the hand, and the German word is a wave in the water. R:yi:CYED doesn't list the noun, but it does have the verb , , which is more likely to be cognate with . —Mahāgaja · talk 07:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So would that then make and  doublets, or would  just be a deverbal of ? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 08:46, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If the hypothesis and the stated etymology of are right, they're not doublets.  is deverbal from, from , while  is a native Germanic word. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And yes, the MHG prefix  has become צע־ in Yiddish. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:13, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Shifrin - שאַפיר ???
There seems to be a lot of Yiddish stuff lately, so I thought I'd join in. I was pondering the origin of the name Shifrin, which wikipedia says is a metronymic, and wondering if the given name in question is some variation of שאַפיר (sapphire). It seems that the middle consonant is pronounced f in Yiddish, though not in Hebrew. Or it could be from שיפר, "to improve". Any comments? 24.108.18.81 22:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

久留米
https://www.city.higashikurume.lg.jp/_res/projects/default_project/_page_/001/001/891/26.pdf

One says it's lback yees/. Chuterix (talk) 23:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * black eyes* Chuterix (talk) 23:05, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I guess Japanese 黒目 (kuro(i)me) sounds fairly similar, but the kanji are completely different, so I's venture a guess that it's rather a dad pun than a likely etymology. Wakuran (talk) 00:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, my Japanese is quite limited, but I saw that the form 久留目 apparently was historically attested. Then, attempting Google Translate, it seems that neither the given sorce, nor Japanese Wikipedia actually proposes the "black eye(s)" theory. (Japanese is often ambiguous concerning singular or plural.) Wakuran (talk) 00:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Wakuran 黒 is used in compounds; e.g. MYS.2.87, line 3:
 * Any examples of o raising to u besides Eastern OJ dialects?
 * Anyhow, otherwise why are place names spelled in the most random on'yomi ever (which suspects ateji usage; c.f. )? Chuterix (talk) 01:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Anyhow, otherwise why are place names spelled in the most random on'yomi ever (which suspects ateji usage; c.f. )? Chuterix (talk) 01:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Various things to respond to.
 * Who says "it's black eyes"? The JA WP article's description of the name has nothing to say about "black eyes".  The linked article explicitly says it's not "black eyes".
 * The JA WP lists the following theories about the name's derivation.


 * Government official Kishi no Kimitada recorded in 944 that locals worshipped a kami named, from which the place name might derive.
 * A guild of weavers immigrated from the continent in ancient times and settled in the area, such that the name might be a shift from [literally "Chinese [continental] clan", also riffing off of ],, ,.
 * w:Emperor Yōmei's son Prince Kume's name might be the source. Due to the Silla conquest of the Korean peninsula, Prince Kume moved to w:Tsukushi Province and died there in 603 in what became the Kume district of w:Shima, Fukuoka.
 * The w:Chikugo River meanders substantially through the area, so the name might be a shift from verb.
 * I cannot figure how the prince's name of Kume would gain that medial -ru-, so subjectively, I feel like the kami name seems most likely, but if we can find any more textual evidence for the variations on the clan name, that also looks to be a possibility. The verb origin is an interesting idea, but I would go with verb, or more likely even its derivative , from the way the river wraps around parts of the town -- also, phonologically, that final -ku in the verb  wouldn't just vanish: any noun derivation would be kurumeki, not kurume.
 * About names and kanji spellings, remember that w:man'yōgana style spellings often use kanji purely for their phonetic values. See also, or , used phonetically to spell.
 * About in particular, despite what the Wikipedia article concludes at w:Nara_(city), the presence of a final -ki or -ku element in the oldest textual evidence points strongly towards a Koreanic source, where final -k was a locative suffix (see Appendix:Middle_Korean_h-final_nouns).  Alternatively, this might be Baekje-derived ki in reference to "a walled settlement; a fortress" (see 城).  The refutations by Kusahara mentioned at Wikipedia can be set aside by noting that the existence of other places named Nara (or variations thereof) really does nothing substantial to refute a possible Koreanic origin for the name of the capital city -- these other places may have been named based on Japonic terms, or Ainic (Batchelor records a term narai meaning "ditch" here, which as a borrowed place name might refer to a defensive structure), or some other substrate.  Moreover, a derivation solely from nara meaning "flat" only works by ignoring the -ku / -ki ending of the name, as recorded in the oldest texts.
 * I hope that covers the bases. :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr Regarding : What explains the existance of then? It's certainly derived as a compound of a borrowed term Silla + . What about  where it literally means "castle of palace"?
 * I'd support more of the Baekje kwi etymology, but the Korean similarity is definitely interesting. Chuterix (talk) 23:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Did you have a look at 新羅? That goes into extensive detail.
 * , as you note, is analyzable as "palace fortress".
 * The difference between these two terms and is that we have textual evidence of varied spellings with readings ending in ki, but also ku and possibly even hints of a nasal  (from the 良 spelling for the second syllable; Middle Chinese readings have an  final).  This suggests, albeit inconclusively, that this might be a different morpheme than Baekje-derived . ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:32, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr: "Did you have a look at "siragwi"? That goes into extensive detail." Yes; I believe this is the Baekje word kwi 'fortress'.
 * Of course this is what literally means. That's why I said that.
 * "良 has word-final nasal reconstructed in MC; it's probably a different morpheme." This might be phonographically adapted into Old Japanese. Second, 那楽/寧楽 could've been pronounced as anything /narakV/, not just naraku (perhaps a bad transcription of *narakwi?).
 * Whatever this argument is about, I believe the final -kV could be Baekje 城 kwi. The name of Nara came when the Japanese went to modern day Kansai region, so I don't know how this would be borrowed from Korean. Even is way in Eastern Japan, so the -gi element was probably borrowed from Western Old Japanese with rendaku voicing.
 * Anyways this exists to discuss the etymology of, a city in Kyushu and doesn't have a 城 kwi element of any kind (kwi cannot go from *kur(V); that's nonsense and we don't have exact form of Pre-Proto-Japonic let alone discussing place names; I reject PJ existed all because "it doesn't exist in Ryukyuan" and it's possibly a borrowing; what about ?).
 * Anyways sorry I thought that the "black eyes" etym was proposed in the PDF, but I think it's rejected by everyone. Chuterix (talk) 01:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Now, gotten go argue about Okinawan . Chuterix (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Various things to respond to. First, re: Nara:
 * "This [possible nasal coda for ] might be phonographically adapted into Old Japanese."
 * It is not at all clear what you mean by this.
 * Historically, this was first recorded as rau, and was used as w:man'yōgana for the syllable ra. We know from an analysis of Middle Chinese pronunciations and patterns of borrowing into early Japanese that Middle Chinese nasal final  reflects as Japanese .  The question is whether this might have still been a nasal final before we get Japanese sources that clearly indicate a reading of rau -- which is relevant for the time around the settlement and naming of the city of Nara.
 * "Second, 那楽/寧楽 could've been pronounced as anything /narakV/, not just naraku"
 * I have no idea where you get this contention. The second character  is clearly recorded as having the older goon reading of raku (also, but not all that relevant here, geu and gaku, from different Chinese pronunciations).  This is in keeping with the Middle Chinese reconstructed pronunciation of, and with the pattern in Japanese of using the most neutral vowel value for borrowed terms with consonant codas -- which is u or sometimes i, not "anything".
 * The Japanese u is more of a front vowel, realized as something like or  and thus closer to  that the canonical  sound.  The existence of historical spelling  suggests that someone at some point considered the final sound in the name of the city as possibly indicating the Baekji-derived term .  Whether this is evidence of derivation, or an allusion, we cannot tell with certainty.  By way of counter-evidence, the final Japanese vowel in  and  is only ever i, never u.
 * "The name of Nara came when the Japanese went to modern day Kansai region, so I don't know how this would be borrowed from Korean."
 * People from the Yamato polity were already living in the area for quite some time prior to the founding of Nara. See also w:Capital_of_Japan: the historical ones are mostly right around that same region.  The Yamato court had a habit of changing the location of the court with every new ruler, but they usually didn't go very far.
 * Also, as has been documented and as I mentioned over at w:Talk:Nara_(city), w:Empress Genmei, who ordered the move and who may have been the one to propose the name, may well have spoken some form of Old Korean -- considering regional politics at the time, and how much support Empress Genmei's grandmother w:Empress Kōgyoku had given to the Baekje nobility, it was probably the Baekje variant.
 * Re: the final -gi element in Miyagi, we do have historical records for the term Shiragi that clarify that the final element was also realized as -ki. See also the note at the beginning of the NKD entry here at Kotobank.
 * Re: wasa / wase and Vovin, and about maasun, I'll respond in your separate threads about those.
 * Re: Kurume, it appears the initial issue may be resolved, so that's good. 😄 ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Middle Persian "nwky"
There's no sources on the page so I thought I'd ask, are we sure 𐭭𐭥𐭪𐭩 (nwky)/ 𐫗𐫇𐫃 (nwg) were pronounced as nōg in middle persian? It just seems very unlikely. According to the etymologies it was "nava" in old Persian and became "nōg" in MP then "naw" in new persian and "naw/now/nav" in modern Dari/Iranian Persian/Tajik. Since final -ag was so common in middle persian, how do we know it wasn't pronounced nawag? Especially since the loss of final -ag was a very widespread change from MP to NP. "nava" -> "nawag" -> "naw" seems more plausible. Especially since we know it was pronounced "naw" in classical modern persian based on borrowings, and what we know about Classical phonology in relation to the modern dialects.

So is there any source that it was pronounced nōg in MP?? I tried searching myself but didn't find anything. سَمِیر &#124; sameer (talk) 03:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Sameerhameedy: MacKenzie's Concise Pahlavi Dictionary gives /nōg⁠/, as do the other sources on MP I could consult. Manichean script preserves the pronunciation of MP precisely and has . I guess it just developed irregularly; the only other MP word ending in /-ōg⁠/ that survived seems to be /sōg/ which became, so /nō/ might have been expected.--Saranamd (talk) 06:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

אַדורכן
Are there any attested examples of this being used as a verb? I tried to look up and got nothing. Instead I found cases of being used essentially the same way as. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * This is an issue for WT:RFV, I'd say. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of Persian تکیه
(تَ کْ) The etymology of Persian تکیه is not listed on its corresponding Wiktionary page. Looking through a 2001 edition of Moin's Persian dictionary that I personally own, the word is listed as both a verbal noun and common noun of Arabic origin. It's specifically listed as being equivalent to the Arabic تکیة.

I think this should be enough to list the etymology, but of course, if someone can back me up on this claim, please do.

Citation: "تکیه." Moin Encyclopedic Dictionary. Moin Encyclopedic Dictionary. 2001. 19 July 2023. 2601:280:C500:8650:6946:1C8E:3A9E:D27C 08:34, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Our entry for says it's borrowed (via ) from, so the borrowing is in the other direction and the etymology of the Persian word is still unrecorded here. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Yea, because you can figure from the narrow particular meanings, and their historical circumstances, that the Arabic and Ottoman are from the Persian, and while it is also formally difficult to see native origin in the Arabic, Persian has ta- prefix, as in, , ,  (?, sometimes these word beginnings arise for other reasons, as in ). Fay Freak (talk) 08:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * And yet most sources consider this an Arabic word. See for example the Encyclopaedia of Islam. Vahag (talk) 09:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You are nice,, but while relation to the root appears superficially plausible from an external perspective, there are still formal problems of derivation, not least the existence of the term itself within Arabic, unless in a medieval dialect. Possible a pseudo-Arabism formed in Persian by mixed inspiration. Fay Freak (talk) 09:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Furgasonia
Furgasonia is the type genus of the protist family Furgasoniidae. Not my faintest idea of its etymology. Any clue? Gerardgiraud (talk) 14:46, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * My guess is some biologist named Furgason, a rare alternative spelling of Ferguson. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * After googling around, I'm finding a professor of zoology at UCLA in the early to mid 20th century by the name of W. H. Furgason, who seems to have worked on protists, so it's probably him. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Just found this: Waldo Hamlet Furgason, 1902–1975. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * In fact he was specifically a ciliate specialist so it's almost certainly him. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 16:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like you're right, it's probably Waldo Hamlet Furgason. Thanks for the help. Gerardgiraud (talk) 06:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Why does nobody name their sons Waldo Hamlet anymore? —Mahāgaja · talk 07:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

catacomb
What's the ety? It's been changed and challenged various times over the years, e.g. from (which we currently have only in a different sense) to  here,  then added here, changed to "tomb" here, challenged here where the edit summary mentions yet another possibility given by Dictionary.com. - -sche (discuss) 18:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I tidied it up a bit on the basis of the Online Etymology Dictionary, but it's still speculative. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Your etymology is also what's stated in the FEW so it seems the most plausible to me. It might be worth adding a note about since various sources (including the O[xford]ED) mention it as an option, though it seems rather tenuous. The OED adds that catacumbas seems to have been indeclinable in living Late Latin, suggesting to them either a direct borrowing from Greek or a clipping from Ad Catacumbas, though I'm not sure that narrows it down. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 21:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Yiddish "maysnz"
Heard this in a video of a Poylish speaker. The full sentence was "maan tate redt yiddish, nur maysnz yiddish", according to the Yiddish subtitles. The rest of the words in the sentence are pretty clear, but what could "maysnz" correlate to? Could this be cognate to 🇨🇬 I wonder? The video is the Wikitongues Suri speaking Yiddish video, around 0:57. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 03:03, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * R:yi:CYED does list as an alternative form of, so it seems likely. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This article appears to use in a different sense though - as a plural noun. What could this be about? Google Translate says it means "immigrants" here, but I've not found any German cognate that could mean something similar. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 01:49, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't. The passage says . —Mahāgaja · talk 07:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, my mistake. Google Translate seems to have just entirely left out . Insaneguy1083 (talk) 23:31, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Japanese 早稲 'early rice'
(this is the worst day ever for me to do etymologies...)

The Old Japanese (and Modern Japanese) term, can be reconstructed as pre-OJ *wasai, but not a Proto-Japonic form. Why am I saying this? Because there are no Ryukyuan cognates. I've already wrecked and  with this theory, so I figured I would move this to a separate topic (, I'm looking at you).

So basically I reject Vovin's theory that this is a Proto-Japonic word. See also Wiktionary talk:About Proto-Japonic. Anyways I GTG. またね. Chuterix (talk) 01:47, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the assumption is invalid, though, since it's not unlikely the Ryukyuan cognate would have been lost. I've seen several Proto-Germanic listings on Wiktionary, that only seem to be attested in one of the three daughter families. Wakuran (talk) 09:50, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Those single witness reconstructions are sent to WT:RfD unless external comparison admits additional evidence in the superfamily. Proto-Japanese has no superfamily, so this looks like mechanical, internal reconstruction. The external comparison with Austronesian (Robbeets) in a Transeurasian framework has been removed in reaction to another comparison with Indo-Iranian (Miyano) being deemed nonsense, twice.
 * The Transeurasian network looks rather plausible in the cartography of origin myths (d'Hui et al., 2023, “Little Statisticians in the Forest of Tales”, in: Fabula 64, 2023) a-pro-pos seeds.
 * The Korean comparison (Vovin) is supported by Archaeology: (Robbeets et al., 2021, “Triangulation supports agricultural spread of the Transeurasian languages”, Nature 599).
 * This is a hot topic. It needn't be hurried. There's no place for NIH syndrome. It isn't very different from saying that Old English and Ru.  are possibly of pre-IE stock (thus Kroonen, passim).
 * The Indo-Iranian comparison is interesting in view of a possible solution to वार् (cf. Lubotsky 2013) and pre-PIE *d > *h₁, so far as (Eskes, 2020, “The Kortlandt Effect”, Universiteit Leiden).
 * In an RfE, you should be able to predict hypothetical cognates and make sure they don't exist in Ryukyuan, possibly in different senses. A mechanical reconstruction does not satisfy those needs, so that's "nonsense", but it doesn't hurt to keep it around. 141.20.6.67 13:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I guess. Japonic is such a small family, and is basically unattested before the big influx of Chinese loanwords, so the comparison with Proto-Germanic might be less valid, as well. Then, I guess there could still be reasons to assume a word might have been Proto-Japonic, yet having disappeared in either current Ryukyuan, Hachijō or Standard Japanese. (Although when I look it up, these internal reconstructions seem to often be discarded in order to avoid possible Korean influx...) Wakuran (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * If memory serves, Vovin himself went back and forth on the origins of a number of Japanese terms, and I think wasa / wase was one of them.
 * The core meaning seems to have been "early-ripening rice", as indeed matches one of the kanji spellings, . Also if memory serves (I've moved and everything is still in boxes, and I don't know which box contains the relevant books), Vovin held that this term would lose meaning in tropical areas without a clearly defined autumn, so it would make sense for this word to have no reflexes in the Ryukyuan daughter languages.
 * Alternatively, it could be a Koreanic term, and its absence from the Ryukyuan languages might indicate a later borrowing after the Japanese ↔ Ryukyuan split, so the term only made it as far as the Japanese mainland.
 * There are compounds attested from early on, where wasa- appears as the first part in compounds and means "early-ripening". Words like  or .  But then again, I don't see any likely terms in the Japanese lexicon that share any was- root, which could suggest a borrowing from an external source.  The closest I see in phonemic and semantic resemblance is adjective  -- but then, I'm not aware of any /s/ ↔ /k/ correlation in Japonic phonetics.  (There is a correlation in suffixing elements, but that is a separate phenomenon.)
 * Given the evidence available (to me, at least), I don't see strong signs for this being a Proto-Japonic inheritance, and I find myself thinking that this is probably a borrowing. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Does the fact that it has both -a and -e tell us anything? Would a loanword be likely to show that pattern?  — Soap — 15:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Soap: No. The only thing it shows is that the pre-Old Japanese form was *wasai < *wasay? (internal reconstruction only; not Proto-Japonic!). Via reconstruction of a Proto-Japonic word-final consonant *-y presumably based off Ainu and internal evidence, it gets deleted following a compound (no consonant clusters except word-medial pre-nasalized stops; e.g. PJ ). < *wasa(y)n(ə)ta. Several theories were on  of this dubious PJ, but they got deleted because consensus for a relationship of Proto-Japonic to other language has not been confirmed (only (un)definite Korean comparisons; e.g. compare X or possibly cognate with X). @荒巻モロゾフ noted in Wiktionary talk:About Proto-Japonic that the psuedo-Goguryeo/Koguryo toponyms contain errors or speculated  (see User talk:荒巻モロゾフ/Syllable table of Japanese dialects). The problem is that @Eirikr blocked me from Wiktionary all because I added forgotten sourced accent pronunciation to the PJ sections; he even blocked me from mainspace as well even though I source things in mainspace. Chuterix (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought words that alternate like this were assumed to be originally composite, in this case from an earlier wasa-i, which is the explanation we endorse on our page. And that this -i was not typically added to loaned morphemes. This is mentioned on Wikipedia.  We don't list such a morpheme in Category:Proto-Japonic_lemmas, though, so Im not sure what to think. Is the -i theory just a guess? — Soap — 17:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Chuterix, I blocked you for many reasons, the biggest of which was an apparent effort to restructure all Proto-Japonic entries without achieving anything like consensus -- an unfortunate continuation of a pattern you demonstrate of rash editing. The block was short -- just three days -- and  to allow you to discuss pronunciation sections in Proto-Japonic entries, before engaging in any more editing of Proto-Japonic entries.
 * That said, I haven't seen any threads from you seeking to discuss this issue...
 * @Soap -- Separately, sources I have read describe the presence of a front vowel /i/, not a "word-final consonant *-y". There is (as far as I'm aware) no scholarly consensus on whether 1) this vowel was added to words when used as standalones or the final element in a compound, or instead whether 2) this vowel was a core part of such words, and was deleted when the word was used as the first element in a compound.  Old Japanese is when we first get anything Japanese in written form, and Old Japanese did not allow adjacent vowels in the same word, causing instead elision or fusion.  Words with this reconstructed final /i/ were realized as standalones or the second element in compounds by fusing the /i/ with the preceding vowel: /o/ + /i/ → /i₂/, /u/ + /i/ → /i₂/, /a/ + /i/ → /e₂/.
 * One of the theories is Vovin's, that this final vowel may have been a reflex of a final liquid consonant, as in 🇨🇬, which would have been abbreviated in Japonic when the word was the first element in a compound. In other words, he views this vowel difference as a deletional process.  Meanwhile, monolingual Japanese dictionaries that mention this vowel shift often describe the un-fronted version of the word as the older of the two, implying that the final /i/ was an additional process.
 * Regarding native or not native, there is no clear consensus on that. All words that display this kind of shift are nouns traceable to the Old Japanese stage.  All obey expected Japonic sound rules (such as no initial /r/ phonemes, no initial voiced stops, etc.), and show no other apparent indications of any non-Japonic origin.  That said, they may have been prehistoric borrowings, giving time for adaption to the Japonic sound system and integration into the lexicon.
 * But there is also no clear reason for this vowel-shifting to exist at all. Vovin's line of reasoning pursuing a connection to 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬 (more details in the KO entry for those interested) is one attempt at finding an explanation for this phenomenon.
 * Much more speculatively, I have personally wondered if this might reflect some kind of prehistoric noun-class system, perhaps similar to Polynesian languages' classification by separable and non-separable, which (at least some of) these Japanese nouns seem to faintly resemble. I described this in brief about a month ago over in the Wiktionary_talk:About_Proto-Japonic thread, starting from "As an alternative hypothesis, nouns with vowel fronting...".
 * Then again, this vowel fronting is also similar to what we see in verb conjugation stems, where predicate-final /u/ shifts to /i/ when the verb is conjugated into the so-called "continuative" or "infinitive" form -- which can also be used as a noun.
 * You asked, "Is the -i theory just a guess?" Other authors have opined that this might have come from an Old Japanese emphatic nominal particle .  This seems a possibility, despite that this particle remains in evidence as a discrete (non-fused) morpheme in Old Japanese texts.  However, I recently found a paper talking about this, "A Korean Grammatical Borrowing in Early Middle Japanese Kunten Texts and its Relation to the Syntactic Alignment of Earlier Korean and Japanese" by John Whitman in 2012.  This argues that the  particle was a borrowing from early Korean-peninsula languages during the time of Buddhist importation from the mainland, which appears to rule out this particle as a source of the vowel-fronting seen in these nouns.
 * All told, no solid explanation has yet been found. More research is needed in this area.  If we are lucky, more ancient texts might be discovered that could shed more light on how these terms manifested and were used.
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr: You started the debate section about the pron sections discussion here at Requests for cleanup after I added PJ accent (which I forgot to source). Also what about an uncontracted 都都伊 tutui apparently meaning mallet (c.f. MdJ ), appearing only in the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki? I will follow the theory that a word final *-y in PJ is part of the word; it is deleted in compounds due to no vowel clusters. But I also believe it might be an inflection. Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Much more speculatively, I have personally wondered if this might reflect some kind of prehistoric noun-class system, perhaps similar to Polynesian languages' classification by separable and non-separable, which (at least some of) these Japanese nouns seem to faintly resemble. I described this in brief about a month ago over in the Wiktionary_talk:About_Proto-Japonic thread, starting from "As an alternative hypothesis, nouns with vowel fronting...".
 * Then again, this vowel fronting is also similar to what we see in verb conjugation stems, where predicate-final /u/ shifts to /i/ when the verb is conjugated into the so-called "continuative" or "infinitive" form -- which can also be used as a noun.
 * You asked, "Is the -i theory just a guess?" Other authors have opined that this might have come from an Old Japanese emphatic nominal particle .  This seems a possibility, despite that this particle remains in evidence as a discrete (non-fused) morpheme in Old Japanese texts.  However, I recently found a paper talking about this, "A Korean Grammatical Borrowing in Early Middle Japanese Kunten Texts and its Relation to the Syntactic Alignment of Earlier Korean and Japanese" by John Whitman in 2012.  This argues that the  particle was a borrowing from early Korean-peninsula languages during the time of Buddhist importation from the mainland, which appears to rule out this particle as a source of the vowel-fronting seen in these nouns.
 * All told, no solid explanation has yet been found. More research is needed in this area.  If we are lucky, more ancient texts might be discovered that could shed more light on how these terms manifested and were used.
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr: You started the debate section about the pron sections discussion here at Requests for cleanup after I added PJ accent (which I forgot to source). Also what about an uncontracted 都都伊 tutui apparently meaning mallet (c.f. MdJ ), appearing only in the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki? I will follow the theory that a word final *-y in PJ is part of the word; it is deleted in compounds due to no vowel clusters. But I also believe it might be an inflection. Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * All told, no solid explanation has yet been found. More research is needed in this area.  If we are lucky, more ancient texts might be discovered that could shed more light on how these terms manifested and were used.
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr: You started the debate section about the pron sections discussion here at Requests for cleanup after I added PJ accent (which I forgot to source). Also what about an uncontracted 都都伊 tutui apparently meaning mallet (c.f. MdJ ), appearing only in the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki? I will follow the theory that a word final *-y in PJ is part of the word; it is deleted in compounds due to no vowel clusters. But I also believe it might be an inflection. Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Polish pantałyk, and equivalents in other Slavic languages (e.g. Russian панталык)
I'm a member of a Facebook group about Slavic languages, and a Polish speaker posted the following question a while back:

One of the weirdest words in Polish language have to be "pantałyk". Apart from just one saying: "zbić kogoś z pantałyku" (to confuse someone, knock somebody off stride) there is, aparently, no other use for this word. I'm reading it may be of Russian origin. Any thoughts?

People had various theories, but a lot of them had more of a folk etymology quality. At least a few sources (like this one and this one) were given to attest the Polish phrase, and equivalents were provided in Russian (сбить кого с панталыку) and Ukrainian (збити з пантелику).

I believe Russian Wiktionary has панталык, but last I checked, its etymology section was empty. We could use some help from a friendly linguist :)

Available English Wiktionary entries:

Thanks,

Chernorizets (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The Polish term is indeed only used in that phrase and was borrowed from either Russian according to or Belarusian/Ukrainian according to . Beyond being from East Slavic, it seems the term is of obscure origin. Vininn126 (talk) 08:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Vininn126 do you know any Russian or Ukrainian experts here that we could ping? According to a РИА Новости article, at least one Russian philologist seems to explain "панталык" like so:
 * "Панталык" – искаженное Пантелик – гора в Древней Греции, где добывали мрамор.
 * Wikipedia has an article on, which as far I can tell is the same mountain from the quote above. I don't have the background to double-check that etymology myself. Another source mentioning this etymology is this dictionary, although apparently Vasmer traces it to other sources.
 * Thanks,
 * 21:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC) Chernorizets (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * PWN's language council suggests three sources, citing Vasmeer. I don't know if you know Polish, but they suggest: Azerbaijani pand + -lik, Ukrainian панталик, or Bavarian pantl. Ultimately it seems the term is of origin. Vininn126 (talk) 21:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * What would these presumed sources have as meaning? Wakuran (talk) 21:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * In turn, "cleverness; knowledge", and for Ukr and Bav "loop". Vininn126 (talk) 21:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Vininn126 I've seen a Google-translated version of this page. It was somewhat of a bummer that I couldn't find the Azeri or Bavarian formants on here, and the Ukrainian source seems to be based on the two entries that include it (see above).
 * Since I don't know any of these languages (beyond what I can glean as a speaker of a Slavic language myself), I guess I'm trying to finesse someone's assistance to create the corresponding Wiktionary entries ;-) An uncertain etymology is fine - as in other such cases, we can list the possibilities with appropriate references. Chernorizets (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

־ערײַ vs ־ײַ
Should these two be considered separate suffixes? I mean, German does this with and, and some literary sources I've seen don't even mention  as a suffix, only. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Is ever added directly to verb stems the way  is? All of our current examples of  show it being added to nouns ending in . —Mahāgaja · talk 08:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * derives from a verb though? There's no to add  to. I also found  elsewhere, and a fast food restaurant would definitely make more sense to derive from  than from an . Insaneguy1083 (talk) 10:15, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't be theoretically possible, just like sneezer, though? Wakuran (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Theoretically, yes, but the meaning of makes  +  much more likely, and  is probably also from the verb. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:13, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Off topic but, I found in the Comprehensive English-Yiddish Dictionary by Schaechter. There's a lot of neologisms in it, would those (incl.  itself) be worthy of adding to Wiktionary? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 01:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

קאָכענען?
According to Memrise, comes from Polish and means "to like, to love". Ironically I haven't found this on the Polish Wiktionary. I can imagine this coming from 🇨🇬, but instead Polish Wiktionary provides קאָכען זיך (yet at the same time no such standalone verb as ). So what do we make of ? Is it actually used in Yiddish? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 04:58, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

шикалка
I've just created the Bulgarian entry. I haven't been able to find an etymology for it, though - sadly, the Bulgarian Etymological Dictionary is missing the volume where words starting with "ш-" would appear, and I could find nothing in ESSJa and a few other Slavic etymological dictionaries. According to a dialect dictionary where the dialect form is attested, it might be related to. That's as far as I've been able to get. @Bezimenen @Kiril kovachev - ping for visibility.

Thanks,

Chernorizets (talk) 06:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Chernorizets Thanks for your ping for attention, I wish I could help you, but unfortunately, if you have nothing, then it seems I won't be able to be of help either. This is my first time hearing of ESSJa — thanks for teaching me of it — but given that I'm even less resourceful etymology-wise than yourself, I have little clue what we can do. The thing I am used to doing is just leaving it as 'd and waiting for the new BER volume to come out, maybe... (do you have access to the currently-undigitised volume 8, btw?). It seems we also have no cross-references from the Proto-Slavic entry from, nor other homographs, to refer to, which I also often hope to lean on... but alas no luck. Sorry to be of so little help, Kiril kovachev (talk) 08:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It might have something to do with χολή, proto-Hellenic, both meaning "gall". The diminutive -ka could refer it to oak-gall rather than the human kind. Bulgaria is next to Greece, so borrowing is not unlikely. Change from kh to k is irregular, but irregularities do happen.
 * That still leaves the shi- to account for... 24.108.18.81 23:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Like from ? It is still exceedingly likely that two words were combined here to distort one word, for example by combining  and that Greek word – I am thinking of cases like, and in that fashion there may even be unaccounted Greek forms, in either case a rare combination that will forever stay doubtful. Fay Freak (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It's probably native Slavic. See Kurkina's article, pages 22–23. Vahag (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * What a wonderful resource! Thanks @Vahag! Chernorizets (talk) 08:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So, somebody who is not me will answer more etymologies like and, and create a prefix entry in , Russian, Ukrainian or Old East Slavic, and Bulgarian ши-? (My word of two words will turn out “two morphemes”.) Not to speak of the obscure dialectal words mentioned standing model for the second part? Plus  is apparently from it with suffix  rather than  which sounded more like a fish story anyway. And . . Fay Freak (talk) 12:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)


 * For жаворонок, according to Vasmer, the first part is of onomatopoeic provenance, while the second is related to ворона. As for шикалка, I'm in favour of native Slavic orgin, but I cannot specify with certainty the exact provenance of the word--IYI681 (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You realize though that the article that Vahagn Petrosyan linked provides some related forms and discusses Vasmer? Fay Freak (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I haven't read it. I just opened Vasmer's dictionary:) I will take a look at it though Greetings, Christian IYI681 (talk) 13:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Bardhyl
"Everything Albanian has to be from native roots", as a source of seemingly bad edits to etymologies, has not yet reached "Everything Turkish has to be from native roots" levels, but it's getting there. The etymology of this name has been changed a number of times without changing the reference (thus hijacking it); someone should check what that source and others actually supports. If the Albanian ety is a folk ety, then the asserted connection to Yllbardhë also needs to be qualified. - -sche (discuss) 01:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * See also the edits to Afërditë today (and previously dhampir, which I eventually had to indefinitely edit-protect). - -sche (discuss) 01:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, [Surjection rolled back the most recent edits, and I went ahead and protected the pages from editing by new users, because Albanian terms derived from other languages have for years persistently attracted edits of this sort. I'm trying to think of who here speaks Albanian and could assist with checking if reliable references say anything else about these words that we should add or change; maybe User:Etimo? (Also, as I said above: if the Albanian ety of Bardhyl is a folk ety, then it seems like the asserted connection to Yllbardhë also needs to be qualified or revised...) - -sche (discuss) 06:38, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

שטייגער
I can get how the sense of "musical scale" can relate this to 🇨🇬, but how do we derive "custom" or "way of life"? I can't find a semantic link, other than maybe an over-the-top poetic "life has its ups and downs". Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * German Steig can mean "footway, footpath", although the suggestion might still require some levels of Semantic shift... Wakuran (talk) 12:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Lithuanian: kulkšnis
According to etymological dictionaries,  is related to Bulgarian  and BCMS, among others. Could someone please provide an etymology?

Thanks,

Chernorizets (talk) 04:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)


 * In particular, I'm curious about PIE, based on this etymology. Chernorizets (talk) 06:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Pokorny definitely lists kulkšnìs under (s)kel-4 (to bend, crooked). 24.108.18.81 02:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Derksen actually provides an etymology in his Etymological Dictionary of the Baltic Inherited Lexicon. I've updated the Lithuanian entry accordingly. Chernorizets (talk) 07:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

קוילען
The word is pretty well-attested. But 🇨🇬 relates more to 🇨🇬 than it does to killing or death more generally. And there's no known cognate in German. Could this be Hebrew-derived somehow? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Only if there's some way to get the ט out of . And I don't think there's any phonologically plausible way of getting it from, either. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:28, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Could it be related to ? Or how early is it attested, could it just be related to ? - -sche (discuss) 06:44, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, Swedish has, earlier , lit. make cabbage of, as cabbage was a main staple in rural farming, from an early West Germanic borrowing of Latin , cf. German . Might Yiddish have a similar semantic reasoning, or is it unlikely? Edit, apparently Yiddish uses קרויט (kroyt), whereas its cognate in other Germanic languages usually means something like herb, plant, spice. I guess you can strike that suggestion... Wakuran (talk) 11:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmm, would a connection to coal be plausible, similar to "ashes to ashes, dust to dust", or would that just be semantically strained? Wakuran (talk) 23:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I dont know what time period we're talking about here, but what we used to call bullets were things much larger, rounder, and less dangerous than what the word means today. I wouldnt think a word for bullet would be used to mean kill in, say, 1400 AD or any time earlier than that.  In fact the original meaning of German  was bowling ball, and the Slavic word from which  is derived is said elsewhere on our site to be a cognate of that German word.  The English word bullet has a similar origin (a diminutive of a word for ball).  Another early use of the word was for slingshot projectiles ... a weapon, yes ... but not anywhere near as deadly as today's guns. — Soap — 22:51, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Re : the expected Yiddish cognate from that would probably be or, based on our knowledge of correspondences between German and Yiddish diphthongs. Although  apparently comes from 🇨🇬, and OHG/MHG "ū" does sometimes turn into 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬.
 * Re : it says there that the word is from Belarusian or Ukrainian (although I would personally dispute that since /u/ => /oj/ is a bit dubious), and its plural form is clearly differentiated with the verb "to kill" so I don't quite see the connection. In fact, now that I think about it (and I'm getting a bit off-topic here but) I would actually posit as a cognate of  rather than of some Slavic origin. After all, it was stated that  is related to . Perhaps  took the morphology of, but then the meaning of ? If so, then  meaning "to kill" would make quite a bit more sense. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 02:58, 1 August 2023 (UTC)