Wiktionary:Grease pit/2016/August

bot no longer works
SemperBlottoBot no longer works. This follows that wants me to change HTTP to HTTPS. But nowhere in my code do I have HTTP. I don't know what to do. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, the library you use needs updating. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 07:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Norman
Could someone run a bot to fix the alphabetical order for translations into Norman and all other translations that are out of order because of this? One latest example is flannel. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:10, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This question has arisen before. I have been resorting them manually whenever I come across them. This job should have been done when the merger was made. DonnanZ (talk) 10:34, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. I'm getting sick of fixing it manually. Mglovesfun/Renard Migrant could have done a better job.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:40, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * In that case, perhaps you can ping the guilty party. DonnanZ (talk) 14:42, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Template:R:Cambridge
This didn't work when I added it to. I have never tried using it before; am I missing something? DonnanZ (talk) 10:41, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The normal mode that Cambridge's site uses for links has "-" as a word separator rather than a space. Other sites use separators like "_" or "+". Solutions are:
 * Type, which works now yielding , but needs typing.
 * Use which has many dictionaries available, including at least some from Cambridge, which works now without extra typing.
 * Convince someone to prepare a Lua routine that replaces a space with a character specified in templates like or several of the taxonomic reference templates.
 * Let someone do Lua with a data module that has the separator character for each website in a database DCDuring TALK 11:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Solution 1 will be OK as a workaround until the template is adapted. DonnanZ (talk) 21:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We already have Module:encodings which can be extended for this. —CodeCat 21:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Categegory for English Semordnilaps
I noticed that there is no category for English semordnilaps. I looked at trying to make one, but as I have no worked with modules before, I thought I'd ask first. Could someone please create the category for me, or tell me how to? I hope this is the right place to ask. Thank you! Zumley (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't think you need a module to create a category. Just add your new category to an entry (the existing one is, so you could create  ) and it will appear as a red link at the bottom of the entry. Click that and save the resulting blank page. Thereafter, all pages given the category will appear on that page. I feel a little leery about the term semordnilap, since it's not really standard English (does any mainstream dictionary have it?), but I can't think of any better term for them. It will also be editors' responsibility to add and remove the tag as needed: e.g. if an entry is removed (by failing verification, etc.), that might affect its reverse-spelled entry, needing us to remove the tag from there. Equinox ◑ 01:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Symbol ^ is used to capitalise Korean transliterations
Hi. Somebody must have changed the modules again. This - should link to the 뽈스까 on the Korean Wiktionary, not ^뽈스까. Symbol ^ is present in the template but not displayed, it only capitalises the first letter of the transliteration. This is a North Korean word for Poland. See the translations section there.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:03, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Someone may have fixed this - seems to be working at Poland now. Wyang (talk) 01:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I mean the interwiki link (a small "ko") in . Try clicking on the little "ko", it will try to search for ^뽈스까 in the Korean Wiktionary. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah sorry I see what you mean Anatoli. Fixed. Wyang (talk) 02:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Template:pl-decl-noun-irreg
This was (along with extensive edits to Module:pl-noun to make it work) was created by User:Esszet, who apparently didn't know how to keep it from showing a module error on the template page itself. Can anyone fix it? Chuck Entz (talk) 03:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Wyang (talk) 03:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That was quick! Thank you! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:55, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Can someone rewrite this to allow for the Latin script? Ultimateria (talk) 03:43, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything obvious in the template that would make it not work with the Latin script. If it's defaulting to Tagbanwa for some reason, |sc=Latn should work. KarikaSlayer (talk) 13:36, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought we could get templates to detect scripts? Ultimateria (talk) 15:09, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Does it not already allow the Latin script? --WikiTiki89 15:14, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Is the issue that it adds "Ilocano terms needing transliteration" if the term is already in Latin script? Other than that, it seems to work (i.e. it displays fine). - -sche (discuss) 18:58, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I fixed that issue, at least. The problem was that the template was manually including the request category rather than letting do it automatically. —CodeCat 19:01, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

In an interesting twist, the non-Latin script listed for Ilocano is  (Tagbanwa). The wiki for Ilocano language says that Ilocano instead used  (Baybayin) historically. Furthermore, the two Ilocano entries we have in non-Latin script ( and ) are in, not. So, I think we have an error in the language module. Is that correct? — JohnC5 20:52, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Separately: I suggest we just lemmatize on Latin script, rather than having some entries in Latin script and some entries in another script. - -sche (discuss) 21:28, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Template:R:L&S
The template is now broken, but a few days ago it still worked. Hopefully it can be fixed. -Poskim (talk) 15:03, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Usage of the template: or
 * Example: displays "juxtā" and should link to "juxta", but now it also links to "juxtā" which gives "No document found" and "We're sorry, but we were unable to find a document matching your query."
 * : Could you fix this for all Perseus Latin templates? — JohnC5 17:13, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I believe it has been fixed now. — JohnC5 17:24, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed; thank you. I didn't mean to break that one.    Isomorphyc (talk) 17:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you too. -Poskim (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Special:BookSources issue
The page "Special:BookSources" contains the text "Learn how to bypass this page and go to the same book source every time", which links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lunchboxhero/monobook.js. However, this is a page at the English Wikipedia which does not exist here. Thus, creating a monobook.js page at Wiktionary actually does nothing. Could someone either import the script, or remove the misleading text? Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * : I've copied the instructions to User:Keith the Koala/common.js User:Keith the Koala/BookSources.js, and the script itself to User:Keith the Koala/externISBN.js. I'd also suggest putting the code in your common.js instead of monobook.js, that way it won't depend on what skin you're using. I don't know how to edit the Special:BookSources intro. Keith the Koala (talk) 10:36, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it's working fine! Hope someone can edit "Special:BookSources" accordingly. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:11, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Renaming "SIC" as "sic"
The template was originally renamed  as sic was an ISO 639-3 code. However, it has since ceased to be one, at least from February 2009 when it was turned into a redirect to. Does anyone object to making the primary template again, and turning  into a redirect? — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:20, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with it. —CodeCat 20:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A usabiity improvement. DCDuring TALK 21:21, 4 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I suppose so; though isn't it a bit unwise to use any three-letter lower-case code, if future ISO changes are liable to break it? Equinox ◑ 21:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think we need to care about that any more. DTLHS (talk) 21:34, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Correct, because we no longer have the language codes as templates. (Compare how  is still a valid language code, but we have . Indeed, we already have, this is just a proposal to make it the main template and make  a redirect, reversing the current arrangement.) - -sche (discuss) 22:14, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, this seems uncontentious and there were no objections so I went ahead and made the move. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I can't see Parser profiling data
As the title says. Clicking on the triangle to show it reveals an empty expanse with a height of 1em or something. The HTML source shows me an empty table. —suzukaze (t・c) 03:39, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * It seems like it was converted to a JavaScript variable, but I'm not quite sure how to access it easily... —suzukaze (t・c) 03:11, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Weird hidden category
Maybe I'm accidently screwing up my entries, but I don't understand why a hidden category – "head tracking/no lang category" – seems to be following me around lately. For instance schior has this hidden category. I always try to make my entries as correct as possible, so this really bugs me. Any advice? --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Think answered all my questions :-) --Robbie SWE (talk) 19:05, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

"elements" and "wikipedia" templates
Is there any way to get and  to play nicely together? See ytterbium, where should sit below  aligned with the right margin, but refuses to do so. — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2016 (UTC)


 * ✅—suzukaze (t・c) 21:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. So, what's the trick? Did the templates themselves need to be altered in any way? — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:56, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I did, which already does. —suzukaze (t・c) 01:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, good to know. — SMUconlaw (talk) 03:45, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Support for head2= in ,
Is it possible to support head2= in these templates? See Category:Russian words suffixed with -клинить, where both -кли́нить and -клини́ть are possible. I'd like to say or similar. Benwing2 (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
 * seems inappropriate since this is just a regular link and not a headword. Do you have a better term? —CodeCat 19:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe form2=? Benwing2 (talk) 21:33, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

What are the criteria for a Japanese abbreviation and a Japanese short form?
I'm confused about the difference between the two templates and  regarding Japanese headwords. Apparently, Western loans such as or  fall into the abbreviation category, while Chinese derivatives such as  belong to the short form category: the former is similar to English abbreviations such as  or, while the latter which retains Chinese morphemes (Kanji) is more like  being short for software development lifecycle. That being said, they are seemingly created in the same fashion: by dropping a couple of morae. So which is which? Which template should I use? ばかFumiko￥talk 02:20, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Most of them should be classified as short forms. Abbreviations should be pronounced as a original form, such as Mr.. However, this distinction is not clearly made. See Category:English abbreviations and Category:English short forms. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:29, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What about cases like OL? They're not pronounced like what they stand for too either. ばかFumiko￥talk 01:48, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe initialism? Although it takes the first letter of the romanization in a European manner... —suzukaze (t・c) 01:54, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * IMO most of them are short forms; abbreviations are 々, 〼, ゝ, etc. —suzukaze (t・c) 02:39, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Entering Translations for Plautdietsch
When it comes to entering translations for Plautdietsch into the section for translations, I wish I could only enter the masculine, feminine, neuter and plural options, just like one would do for German or Polish. What module (or something else) can facilitate that mechanism? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Why would you enter all those forms into a translation table? Translation tables only have lemmas. —CodeCat 21:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I think he's just complaining that there are too many gender checkboxes. --WikiTiki89 21:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

AJAX call to retrieve word information from one specific language
I recently posted this as a question on StackOverflow, and I am hoping that someone with experience in both JavaScript and the Wiktionary API will be able to help me.

Thanks in advance
 * Wiktionary has no API. You will have to write your own function to split the page by language section (always level 2 headings). DTLHS (talk) 18:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We could make one, though. Lua/Scribunto is capable of retrieving the page wikicode and parsing its contents. —CodeCat 19:01, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That would be very useful. Let's do it. DTLHS (talk) 19:02, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The problem would be dealing with malformed page content. I've made efforts to standardise the format further, but not everyone is going to stick with it. I think at best, we can try to parse just sections for now. —CodeCat 19:07, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. We should start with the top-level part of a page that everyone agrees on: the language sections, interwikis. If it catches on we can start going deeper and eventually make it part of WT:ELE that the page should conform to the module. DTLHS (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We do already have WT:NORM which was made for this kind of thing, but since it was made optional for non-bots, it somewhat defeats the purpose. —CodeCat 19:20, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the module should be able to output a canonical version of the page that conforms to WT:NORM. If we could do this it would make it very easy to write an autoformat bot. DTLHS (talk) 19:22, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I have written a Wiktionary wikitext parser that converts it into xml, if anyone's interested. This is the result of one xmlization of Table with,   options set. --Dixtosa (talk) 19:16, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * There's also mwparserfromhell, written for Python, which I use a lot for bot edits. My preference is for a server-side implementation though. —CodeCat 19:20, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * mwparserfromhell is a good thing. I use it a lot too. Benwing2 (talk) 06:01, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Unpatrolled edits are no longer red
Using Chrome, in Recent changes the exclamation mark for unpatrolled edits is no longer red but black. What changed? DTLHS (talk) 19:59, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Adding support for theoretical forms to headwords?
What do you think about adding support for theoretical inflections to Module:headword? I'm thinking of supporting this in Russian declension tables, and it would be nice if the headword matches. This would mean there would be a flag to turn this on when specifying an inflection, and it would display the inflection italicized, unlinked and preceded by a *. Benwing2 (talk) 20:36, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * How would this differ from a reconstructed form? —CodeCat 20:45, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's sort of the opposite of reconstructed. It means the forms don't exist, but could have existed and/or could be created ad-hoc, and this is what they would look like. Something like this:
 * --WikiTiki89 20:55, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * So like a defective verb? I don't think we usually use an asterisk for this- what about coloring them gray? DTLHS (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Not quite like a defective verb, but more like a verb that just happens to be used usually only in the present tense or with a particular person/gender/number, but theoretically could be used in the future or another person/gender/number. --WikiTiki89 20:58, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Wikitiki here. The use case is Russian nouns in particular that normally appear only in the singular, but which potentially have plurals, e.g. ; the plurals occasionally appear but are considered затруд. = "difficult", which we normally render as "rare and awkward" or something similar. It could also be used for the many verbs that have similarly rare/awkward past passive participles (although these probably won't appear in headwords).
 * I would make it display something like this:
 * те́мя • (témja) (genitive те́мени, plural *темена́, genitive plural *темён)
 * Or maybe
 * те́мя • (témja) (genitive те́мени, plural *темена́, genitive plural *темён)
 * Benwing2 (talk) 22:44, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think this makes much sense. Either they're used or they're not. The usage frequency doesn't come into play. For English, the template allows for an extra message to say the noun is mostly uncountable. —CodeCat 23:50, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This kind of stuff makes sense in Russian. See for example. If you don't like it I'll add the support myself. Benwing2 (talk) 00:02, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The intended use is when the plural is not attestable to our standards (or at least not in every grammatical case), but nevertheless could exist. This has nothing to do with countability. It could be a countable noun but nearly always used in the singular. The plural declension is not as straightforward as just adding an -s like in English, so it would be useful for readers to show how the plural is formed should they ever need to use it. --WikiTiki89 00:32, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
 * If it's not attested, then to show it would be a reconstruction. We don't need a special notation. Even the Russian page shows it as a reconstruction. —CodeCat 01:25, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This makes no sense to me. If it's a reconstruction we do need special notation. In any case, Russian grammars like Zaliznyak distinguish between missing forms and затруд. forms. Benwing2 (talk) 02:09, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This makes no sense to me. If it's a reconstruction we do need special notation. In any case, Russian grammars like Zaliznyak distinguish between missing forms and затруд. forms. Benwing2 (talk) 02:09, 13 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, but if you do it, I suggest that instead of having the forms be unlinked, it would be helpful if you had them all across the board link to an appendix or WT:ARU where you explain why they're listed but marked with asterisks. Alternatively, if you use [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8F&diff=next&oldid=39606369 superscripts or asterisks], I would suggest that instead of spelling out the full note in every entry and having individual entries be given slightly different notes that might lead someone to think there was a difference between them, it would be better to have a parameter like  which, when set, would generate the note. The note could also link to a section of WT:ARU where you go into more detail on how some words are difficult and have accepted theoretical plurals that are simply not used. - -sche (discuss) 03:58, 13 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I support the inclusion of unwikified theoretical forms in the headword. They are not reconstructions. The forms nominative plural *темена́ and genitive plural *темён are grammatically correct forms of темя, even though they are not used. If someone asked me, what the plural form of is, the correct answer is "темена́", even if these are considered "awkward" (the Russian grammarians use the term "затрудни́тельный") and almost never used in the real life. "темена́" is also different from missing or proscribed forms, e.g. there is no 1st person singular future for, any theoretical form in this case would be incorrect. There are many examples of theoretical forms. One can make diminutives almost from every noun or form verbal nouns from verbs. There may be no attestations for them but these may still be considered standard Russian terms or forms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:52, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The current system using asterisks/superscripts and footnotes is not the ideal way to handle these forms. Your suggestion is not a bad one, although I'd still want them to not be made blue like normal links, so they stand out more. Benwing2 (talk) 05:59, 13 August 2016 (UTC)


 * My long-term position is that unattested inflected forms should not have entries or at least should have entries that mark them as hypothetical, but I have not seen consensus to support that position. My similar position is that unattested inflected forms should not be shown on such a prominent place that is the headword line. I do not see what "theoretical" means in the above discussion other than "hypothetical", meaning "such that it could exist but does not actually exist", and I oppose extensive inclusion of hypotheticals in the English Wiktionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:10, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Getting mw.log to work
Inserting mw.log into module code to get console output has never, ever, ever worked for me. Not in Chrome, not in Safari. (Mac OS X 10.9) As a result I've been reduced to debugging 5000-line modules using error ... hardly very convenient. Does this work for anybody? If so, how? Benwing2 (talk) 03:03, 13 August 2016 (UTC)


 * It (used to) output to an area under Templates used in this preview called Parser profiling data. Now the output has been moved to a JavaScript variable that can be seen by using View source on the webpage (somewhat conveniently all the way at the bottom): Module:Sandbox, —suzukaze (t・c) 03:12, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yuck. That's quite inconvenient. And it means the text "Use mw.log in module code to send messages to this console." that appears near the debug console is totally wrong. Benwing2 (talk) 05:55, 13 August 2016 (UTC)


 * mw.log works again.  —suzukaze (t・c) 04:49, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Automatic creation of English alternative forms.
Is there a bot or a gadget somewhere that can do this? I understand that a lot of the rare English terms that I add have a hyphened alternative form of it that is also attested. I'll tell you, it is really, really annoying to have to create the main form and the hyphen forms and their non-lemma forms as well. Is there a way to autocreate these? If not, is there someone who could possibly make something like this? Conrad.Irwin hasn't been online for 3 years. Philmonte101 (talk) 04:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I'd say bots shouldn't do this because it needs a human to confirm that the alt form really does exist. Equinox ◑ 05:29, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Invisible Template:premature
For some reason, is invisible to me in Android, instead of generating a yellow box saying that a vote is premature. Is there a problem with the template? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC)


 * It seems like  is hidden on mobile. —suzukaze (t・c) 21:35, 14 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I've removed the class. This template seems like data about the vote which we'd want people on mobile to be able to see. - -sche (discuss) 22:21, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Newest/oldest requests not displaying in categories
I haven't tracked down another category to see if this is a universal problem, but in Category:Translations to be checked (French), the box that shows the newest and oldest additions to the category isn't displaying any words. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 18:43, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I purged the page and it seems to be working now. --WikiTiki89 19:02, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Unhide bot edits on the Watchlist when they are hidden in preferences
I noticed that when I have bot edits hidden from my Watchlist in preferences, trying to temporarily unhide them by unchecking the box on the Watchlist page does not work. Unhiding them in preferences does work. Anyone experience this too? Is this something that should be reported at phabricator? --WikiTiki89 22:07, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Language-specific alphabetization?
Since this did not attract answers here, I shall ask again here: Is it technically possible to have categories, derivative tables and other lists of terms from a single language sort with a different scheme than the default? I find that the incorrect sorting detracts from the quality of the dictionary.__Gamren (talk) 09:03, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You have to add a sort key manually. For example, " " will sort the page on which this category is placed under "Nonsense". Is this what you meant? — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * No, not really. Categories and the template, to take two examples, automatically alphabetize the terms they are given. This results in incorrect sorting for some languages. What I mean is, can we make these appliances recognize what language they are working with, and sort differently for different languages?__Gamren (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not really understanding what you mean by "Categories and the template ... automatically alphabetize the terms they are given" (maybe you can give an example). However, in general, I don't think there is a way to make a template like  automatically recognize the language of a entry to which it is applied. The template would have to be edited to allow editors to add a language code manually, e.g., . — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:33, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. Consider the following:


 * and and compare them to Appendix:Latin_script/alphabets. See that the template reorders the terms. Clear now?__Gamren (talk) 11:40, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We can add a sort key to Module:languages/data2 that will modify the sorting order in everything that uses that module. We just need to know the correct order of all the letters. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:44, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * : oh, yes, I see what you mean. Chuck has answered your question – I didn't know this was possible. Chuck, see "Appendix:Latin script/alphabets" that Gamren referred to above. — SMUconlaw (talk) 13:53, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I created, which is identical to except it does not automatically sort the arguments. Sorting is difficult and even if the proper sort keys are added it may not work correctly. DTLHS (talk) 14:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I had seen that page before, but thought it could only modify which characters are seen as distinct, not completely change the ordering (which no language seems to do). Is the syntax just snip ? __Gamren (talk) 14:35, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not possible to change the ordering of characters in a category. This is a huge shortcoming, which the developers somehow seem to ignore. Per-category custom collation orders are an absolute necessity. —CodeCat 14:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * For those categories added by templates, it should be possible to include a sort key in most cases. Categories added by hand, or those with both hand-added and template-added members, no such luck. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:46, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * So, uh, would someone do that? The page is protected.__Gamren (talk) 10:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I use for Norwegian and the results are quite satisfactory. You have to do the alphabetical sorting yourself, of course, but the balancing is done automatically. DonnanZ (talk) 11:07, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It was discussed here . DonnanZ (talk) 11:42, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Which template do you want modified? Benwing2 (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * der3-u seems to be okay (actually-sorted lists are easier for editors, anyway). I had no idea this had come up before (and so recently, even!). There is still the matter of categories, however., would you add the sort key you describe?__Gamren (talk) 17:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Wiktionary offline
Hello, I am sometimes in locations without connectivity to the internet, but I'd still like to have access to Wiktionary for reference. How can I set up a local copy for offline reference? Thanks. Codeofdusk (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't know an easy way. You can download the whole project here but (i) it's very large and (ii) this just gives you the data (in raw wikitext markup), not a browsable Web site. Unlike Wikipedia, we don't publish offline CD/DVD versions. Equinox ◑ 12:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I haven't used it, but the Kiwix tool has most Wikimedia projects available for offline viewing. I think the en.wiktionary version is about 2gb. Edit - if you do end up using it, please let us know how it goes.  - TheDaveRoss 15:22, 19 August 2016 (UTC)


 * User:Matthias Buchmeier's user page details his method of creating downloadable dictionaries for offline use. If you're interested in a single language that isn't already listed on his user page, you could ask him if he had time to create it for you. - -sche (discuss) 15:26, 19 August 2016 (UTC)


 * If you have a computer that can run Java, I would recommend Xowa. Xowa is the only (free open-source) application I know of that allows you to keep an up-to-date offline copy of Wikimedia sites, including userpages, talkpages, and multimedia.  To save space, you can choose to download only the text without multimedia.  With compression, all of Wikipedia including images supposedly can fit onto a 128-GB flash drive, and Wiktionary is much less than that.  I have only tried downloading Simple Wikipedia myself with Xowa, but it worked great.  http://www.xowa.org/  Nicole Sharp (talk) 07:41, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Xowa allows you to dump directly from the Wikimedia servers, so has more up-to-date content than Kiwix, and also allows you offline access to userpages and talkpages which often contain important and/or useful content (such as templates, lists, discussions, etc.). Xowa can also be used both offline and online, and can be integrated to serve wikipages to Firefox, so if your internet goes out while browsing Wikipedia (or any other Wikimedia site), you can continue browsing the site offline right in your web browser, with the wikipages being served from your offline Xowa archive instead of the internet.  Nicole Sharp (talk) 08:19, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Langcatboiler and no script specified languages
Category:Kalasha language- linking to Category:No script specified script. Is this the desired behavior? Are we going to create this category? DTLHS (talk) 16:19, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

New words to be added
I've come across the word "scotography", meaning radiography and the word "vapography" in context of photography, in late 19th century literature. Can this word be please added to Wiktionary? Thanks. Ineuw (talk) 03:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's better to place requests for entries at Requested entries (English). "Scotography" appears to have quite a few meanings, including thermography, radiography, some process of producing images with a silver plate, and the production of images of ghosts. DTLHS (talk) 04:13, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Appendix:Unicode
Will there be an update to Unicode 9.0 for this page? -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 11:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Module:es-pronunc: bug
Something went wrong with that module: implementing the template, it doesn't always display Latin American pronunciation when this is different (namely, /θ/ > /s/ and /ʎ/ > /ɟ͡ʝ/):
 * pedazo:


 * amenazo:
 * amenazo:


 * estallo:
 * estallo:


 * cuello:
 * cuello:

Could anyone find the bug and fix it? Thanks! [ ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑ ˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔ ˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo ] (parla con me) 22:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Why is /ɟ͡ʝ/ being used to represent [ʝ]? That's very weird. Also, [ʎ] in Spain is recessive and characteristic only of rural speakers in Northern Spain. I think the module should display [ʝ] for this instead, even in Spain. Benwing2 (talk) 00:22, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could change that in Castilian phonetic transcription, but I would keep the traditional phoneme /ʎ/; and I would also display y as [ʝ]. However, before we do that, there's this matter above to solve. Is the mistake in the module or in the template? [ ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑ ˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔ ˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo ] (parla con me) 08:24, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it's a template bug. The template code is pretty nasty and should be moved to Lua. It looks like it's not generating the Latin American version when the Spain version has the same phonetic and phonemic display. Benwing2 (talk) 16:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you take a look? Benwing2 (talk) 16:28, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * If Castilian and Latin American IPA transcriptions are the same, the template isn't even supposed to display both, and just gives a general transcription without :
 * But when they're supposed to be both displayed and only the Castilian is given, then it appears with the accent specification, as above. [ ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑ ˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔ ˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo ] (parla con me) 16:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Wait a second: I think I found the bug. When phonemic and phonetic IPA are identical, the template only displays the former; but, in such a case, if Castilian phonemic transcription is different from Latin American phonemic transcription, the latter doesn't display. Can anyone fix this? [ ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑ ˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔ ˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo ] (parla con me) 16:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Show/Hide not appearing
Once more the what is concealed by, and their relatives cannot be displayed. See [[moss]]. I haven't tried any other entries yet. DCDuring TALK 22:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Intermittent problem that slows multiple edits of the same page. No problem on first accessing page. DCDuring TALK 23:05, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What browser? What does your error console say? DTLHS (talk) 23:39, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This is usually a problem with your browser: the box is added by javascript running on your browser, then the "show" tabs are added. If something interrupts the javascript after the box is added, but before the "show" tabs are added, the result is as you're describing it. More often than not, it's just a matter of things not loading right, and clicking "refresh" or "reload" on your browser will fix it. Sometimes, though, there can be a problem with a gadget or something else that uses javascript, in which case you'll need to troubleshoot it further. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

New Vulgar Latin template
I've created User:KarikaSlayer/VL-noun (backended by Module:User:KarikaSlayer/VL-noun and VL-translit) as a replacement for. The phonetic notation has been updated to match WT:AVL (including stress markings, something that is missing from the current template). Any ideas/criticism welcomed. KarikaSlayer (talk) 03:00, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not quite correct. Latin -um gave -u in the second declension, and the nasalisation was lost already. I also believe that b merged into v by this time ("brabium non bravium"). I'm not sure why the second declension genitive would be -ei, given that short i was not lowered before another vowel but indeed short e was raised in this position ("vinea non vinia"). So -ii would just coalesce into -i, like in Italian. I'm also very unsure about the change of -dj- to -j-, is this really pan-Romance? Finally, there's a third group with respect to vowel outcomes: Sardinian. Sardinian merged all short and long vowels, even i and ī. —CodeCat 12:47, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * All of these should be fixed. About -dj-, Herman 1967 (1997 translation) says: "On the other hand, inscriptions from the second century A.D. onward show more and more confusions in spelling between the following letters and digraphs, which seem at times to have appeared to be interchangeable: i when it represented, as in ; di when it represented before a vowel; g when before , , or ; and even the letter z, which had been borrowed from the Greek alphabet." I'm not sure about the exact environments, though:  shows no trace of palatalization, while  and  do. KarikaSlayer (talk) 18:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * -dj- in has a different outcome from -j- in  in Italian, while  shows yet another outcome. Also consider the two distinctive outcomes of  in French: the nominative has the regular change -or > -re, and this prevented the fortition of the preceding j, while fortition did happen in the oblique form, from . So I'm not sure this change had a single consistent outcome in all Romance languages. The French outcome in particular suggests that j was not fortified phonemically in the earliest individual history of French. I'd be interested to see what happens to Latin words ending in -dior if there are any. —CodeCat 19:09, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Words ending in -dior (that I can find at least) seem to be limited to passives and third declension comparatives (so no direct Romance descendants). KarikaSlayer (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Any with -gior then? —CodeCat 20:20, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * No, same as before. KarikaSlayer (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it has something to do with dissimilation from a preceding non-high back vowel, combined with the position of primary and secondary stress. It wouldn't explain everything (🇨🇬/🇨🇬/🇨🇬 comes to mind), but it might add to other sources. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Blue M doesn't always appear
When viewing a user's list of contributions, the unpatrolled ones get a blue M ("click to mark as patrolled"). I've noticed that this M never appears if I am working in a different tab when the page loads, and later switch back. Is this by design, or does it relate to how Chrome sometimes deprioritises inactive tabs? Equinox ◑ 20:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Watchlist page strangeness
When I click on the "watchlist" tab, the page I get has search, navigation and tools on the left (under the logo), but none of the links there are clickable. Any ideas? SemperBlotto (talk) 06:44, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * ✔ —suzukaze (t・c) 11:14, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I had abandoned using the grouping of changes on the watchlist page because the icons to expand a pages changes no longer appeared. DCDuring TALK 12:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Z bug, diphthong bug with Spanish IPA
A couple of problems with Module:es-pronunc: 1. Latin American Z is treated as a full S, which is wrong (that is because the change θ > s comes before the stress rules, which imply S as different from Z): 2. some vowel clusters are considered diphthongs when they clearly aren't: Could this be fixed? Thanks. [ ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑ ˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔ ˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo ] (parla con me) 14:56, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * (vejez, should display as )
 * (real, should display as )
 * LatAm z should be fixed. KarikaSlayer (talk) 15:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, I was able to solve the second bug myself. Now everything's alright. [ ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑ ˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔ ˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo ] (parla con me) 13:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Translation editor problem
I'm trying to add a Dutch translation for, which is. Note that this is not a fully idiomatic term, at least I don't consider it one: it's made up of, which is an idiom that already has an entry, and. But when I try to enter the translation as, which is the correct way to notate it, the editor refuses, saying: "Please don't use wiki markup ([]{}#|) in the translation.". This is a mistake, it should allow SoP translations that link to terms individually. —CodeCat 21:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You can enter it the old-fashioned way. But the editor's behavior forecloses the desired treatment of SoP translations. DCDuring TALK 12:37, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Not really a mistake: using square brackets to link to parts in a translation is a relatively new practice. I don't think t was even able to handle it at the time the translation editor was written. Still, I think the translation editor should be updated to allow it (but not links to other wikis). Chuck Entz (talk) 19:10, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Condensing the Table of Contents for Entries
What would it take to have our tables of contents display only L2 headers by default, with L3 headers and below being hidden until the L2 is expanded? In other words, to have them look like they do on Wiktionnaire (compare a with a). If there's a gadget or something that does this already, could it be on by default, to make the tables more navigable? 99% of the time, I just want to click down to the language of the word I want to look at, not the POS or another L3/L4 header, and to have to scroll down the table of contents is a pain. It also increases the distance between the top of the page and the actual content, which is not helpful to users.... Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:03, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * For some of the large entries we could use . It does not allow expanding though. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 05:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The TOC can be hidden of course, but that's not the solution. Maybe the TOC could contain just the name of each language, clicking on that would bring up both the full TOC for the language and the entry for the language. Just an idea, but I don't know whether it's workable. DonnanZ (talk) 10:00, 26 August 2016 (UTC)


 * FWIW it seems to be a gadget: fr:MediaWiki:Gadget-SommaireDeveloppable.js. It's probably possible for you to import it in Special:MyPage/common.js, but I'm not a JavaScript person. —suzukaze (t・c) 10:03, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I feel like this should be the default, like on the French Wiktionary. There, the TOC for entries that aren't as long doesn't collapse the section for French (see tres). In general, the TOC's look far neater over their than they do here, and I think we would be well off to set that as the default. It would be a simple step towards making Wiktionary more usable, and I can't think of any arguments against implementing it. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 14:18, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * There's a Tabbed Languages gadget under Preferences that does more or less the same thing? Keith the Koala (talk) 11:13, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * For now, I oppose the idea. I like to see all the contents at once when I load up the page. I think this helps me as an editor, to see if there's something wrong with the entry. I might change my mind later. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that I am proposing having English (and maybe Translingual) sections partly expanded by default; only collapsing other language sections to make both the entry and the TOC's themselves more navigable. Right now, I edit and read Spanish and Tagalog entries, both of which are near the bottom of most entries, and I find that I often have to scroll and scroll just to get to the bottom of the TOC! Not to mention that the TOC's can be a bit overwhelming when there are 50 different L2 headers, each with a number of subsections and sub-subsections which turn the TOC into a formidable wall of text. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 15:03, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree totally. I don't think anyone is saying that the TOC should be dispensed with entirely, which may allay Daniel's fears. But I don't think it should be expanded by default for any language, not even English, as English TOCs tend to be quite lengthy. DonnanZ (talk) 15:12, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Either way, this is the kind of thing that needs a vote, IMO. Please don't implement this without a vote. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:29, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Having the gadget doesn't need a vote. Making it the default should. As for your objection: we're talking about defaults, here. As a gadget, it should be possible to opt out of it in your preferences. As long as it's made clear that the unexpanded state is incomplete and can be expanded, I'm all for it. It would be also nice to allow expansion of only one language: if I want to see the French section of a in the TOC, for instance, I don't want to have to scroll past all the English subsections and subsubsections, which take up two full screens on my computer. The gadget at Wiktionnaire does that quite well. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This could be made to tie in to the gadget that lets you select preferred languages for translations. —CodeCat 19:02, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I support what Chuck Entz said: "Having the gadget doesn't need a vote. Making it the default should." --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:24, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Tabbed Languages restructures display of the entire entry, not just the TOC- that's another matter entirely. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall reading in old discussions that the reason we didn't import fr.Wikt's system in the past was that it required using templates in the headers and that prevented editing particular sections and required editing the whole page all at once. That is evidently not the case any more, since I can edit e.g. specific noun sections of fr.Wikt pages. If we can bring over their gadget on an opt-in basis, and without needing to switch our headers to use templates, I'm all for it. - -sche (discuss) 19:21, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't realize it depended on the templatization of the headers. Hopefully that's no longer the case? (Unfortunately, I'm not very technologically minded, so I'll have to leave it up to others to sort out the details of implenting a Wiktionnaire-like system for TOC's....) Andrew Sheedy (talk) 03:32, 27 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Is anyone able to confirm whether this is in fact possible or not? Andrew Sheedy (talk) 01:43, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Module:heaword
Hello. I copy headword module to Azerbaijani Wiktionary. I have some problem with categories. Let me explain. I found first category on line 390. This code put word to category as "lang-code lemmas" (For example "English lemmas"). But I can't find line for lexical category such as nouns, verbs and others. For example in English Wiktionary Category:English nouns. How I can change it as Kateqoriya:İsim (İngilis dili) or Kateqoriya:İngilis dilindəki isimlər --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 08:00, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Those categories are either provided as parameters to, or as a parameter by the language-specific modules that call it, such as Module:en-headword. —CodeCat 12:16, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi CodeCat. What about Afar language? There is not any or Module:aa-headword. I think I can't explain my problem clearly. I want change category in this module for all languages. I change line 390 as :

In English Wiktionary : In Azerbaijani Wiktionary : By this change words automatically categorized to "Category:XXX dilindəki sözlər" It is OK. Now I want explain my problem again. This module automatically categorized words by part of speech. For example put apple to "Category:English nouns" and sevmek to "Category:Turkish verbs". Right? I want change this section. If you have any question please let me know. --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 05:07, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

bulliens
For some reason it's displays a genitive of in the head word template. Parameters look correct, so the participle template seems to be to blame. Renard Migrant (talk) 19:29, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed. It was the parameters: the word was divided  instead of , which made the template think the word was a compound of  (compare , whose genitive really is ). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:34, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A French entry? Too bad. I thought these were bullying aliens. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:38, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A Latin entry, actually, but I do like the idea of an English portmanteau "bullien" for a bullying alien. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:43, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Wiktionary data access requests in IRC
It is fall in the northern hemisphere, and we are beginning to get the annual migration to IRC of fledgling developers working on academic projects in need of a dictionary for whatever. It would be nice to have an information page a bit more expansive than the FAQ's entries. Here is a coarse draft which might be useful, but definitely needs more expertise/expansion: User:Amgine/Wiktionary data & API. - Amgine/t&middot;e 18:14, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Fall (or autumn) doesn't start until September 22 this year. It's not even past Labor Day in the United States!
 * I smiled at the reference to XSLT. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:26, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It’s still summer only in the U.S. In the UK, they have a different arrangement for the four seasons. I think the British consider the solstices and equinoxes to be the midpoints in the seasons, whereas Americans consider them the starting points. —Stephen (Talk) 04:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Lughnasadh, or "the season related to the beginning of school term", or something even less precise than that. - Amgine/t&middot;e 04:58, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Lua error in Module (error message)
I've come across this twice today, I managed to clear one, but at bade it's affecting four separate languages, and won't go away. DonnanZ (talk) 19:00, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


 * My bad, yet again. I fixed it before you posted this though. --WikiTiki89 19:03, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Cheers, I couldn't have refreshed the page, DonnanZ (talk) 19:07, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Also my bad just now. Guess I should read more carefully. — JohnC5 19:10, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

periodic-table translations
Just crossposting here from "Appendix talk:Chemical elements" in case my original post is missed. I think it would be really great if we can create a series of appendices listing the names of chemical elements in each language (sorted by atomic number), with an index of the languages available for the individual appendices. Way outside my expertise, but it might be possible to program a bot to take the translations already available on Wiktionary and compile them into appendices for each language, which would save a ton of labor from manually copying and pasting. Element names are usually grouped together in the periodic table, so it is good to have the translations listed together in a single appendix, otherwise each element-name translation has to be looked up manually one by one (for over 100 elements). Nicole Sharp (talk) 20:03, 30 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I wonder if a "chemical element" translation data module for each language would be useful, allowing for both centralized data and easy data reuse. —suzukaze (t・c) 06:48, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Module:form of
Hello again. I want ask question about Module:form of. In line 106 : This code output like that :  But I want output like that :   (for Azerbaijani Wiktionary). Can anybody can help me? --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 21:20, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You need to change the order of concatenations in  and change line 106 like this:
 * Benwing2 (talk) 22:05, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Like this:
 * Benwing2 (talk) 22:06, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Benwing2 This code didn't work. --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 22:15, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You have to tell me why it didn't work (e.g. did you get an error and stack trace?) or I won't have any idea how to help. Benwing2 (talk) 03:39, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello again Benwing2. When I change line 106 like that :
 * Error is : Lua error in Module:form_of at line 11: attempt to concatenate local 'text' (a nil value). How I can change change the order of concatenations? --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 11:29, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello again Benwing2. When I change line 106 like that :
 * Error is : Lua error in Module:form_of at line 11: attempt to concatenate local 'text' (a nil value). How I can change change the order of concatenations? --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 11:29, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Error is : Lua error in Module:form_of at line 11: attempt to concatenate local 'text' (a nil value). How I can change change the order of concatenations? --Aabdullayev851 (talk) 11:29, 31 August 2016 (UTC)