Wiktionary:Grease pit/2021/October

for
I  but was reverted by  with comment. This is true but sometimes there might be multiple sources of a borrowing or so and I think this parameter would be useful (maybe not as much as the parameter). Why should this not be added? Svartava2 (talk) 03:53, 2 October 2021 (UTC)


 * also pinging who  the module: why shouldn't this be added? Svartava2 (talk) 03:14, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Please give examples of entries that you'd use this in. — Eru·tuon 14:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Template:ja-pron for "mixed pitch accent"
I don't know if there is a special term for it: sometimes there is more than one type of pitch accent in a word. For example:


 * 意気投合
 * きと  (Atamadaka + Heiban – [1]-[0])


 * 青息吐息
 * あきと  (Nakadakagata + Heiban – [3]-[0])
 * あきいき  (Nakadakagata + Atamadaka – [3]-[1])

It does not seem that Template:ja-pron can handle this type of pitch accent. If possible, the parameter should accept more than one number and show the mixed pitch accents above, but I have no idea how to implement it. --TongcyDai (talk) 07:30, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Resolved: produces strange instrumental plural of яйцо́
Sorry, I see I was looking at the Belarussian lemma, not the Russian. PJTraill (talk) 16:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * At I see a strange instrumental plural, namely я́йцамі, where  is correct (according to the latter lemma and Russian Wiktionary). This is produced by . The genitive plural also disagrees with Russian Wiktionary, and I cannot make out anything there about a “count form яйцы́” to be used where a genitive singular would be normal (*xy, x mod 10 ≠ 1, y mod 10 ∊ {2,3,4}. Could someone please fix this? The documentation of this template also fails to state when it should be used. PJTraill (talk) 15:19, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Using Special:RandomInCategory with en: categories
I would like to use Special:RandomInCategory to get random terms from Category:en:Anatomy. But all of my attempts have returned categories of the form "Category: :Anatomy", eg Category:bnn:Anatomy. I've tried: The categories returned are subcategories of Category:Anatomy, not Category:en:Anatomy. Is this a known issue? Is this something that an editor like me might be able to fix? I have no idea where to start, since special pages don't have talk pages or obvious documentation like templates do. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 19:25, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Visiting Special:RandomInCategory/en:Anatomy.
 * Visiting Special:RandomInCategory/en%3AAnatomy.
 * Typing in "en:Anatomy" at Special:RandomInCategory.
 * Special:RandomInCategory/Category:en:Anatomy. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:29, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, great. Thank you. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 23:42, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I am unable to add information to discussion page
This page: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outher contains question if we can find word "outher" in Chaucer works. I found few of them, but I am not sure how to properly cite them in the main page, so I wanted to add them to discussion page, so somebody with better knowledge about wikitionary customs could do it.

Unfortunately I am unable to do my edit on https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:outher&action=edit&redlink=1

I fill following content:

--- Occurrences of outher in Chaucer works:

---
 * verses 931 and 1136 here: https://chaucer.fas.harvard.edu/pages/man-laws-introduction-prologue-tale-and-epilogue
 * verses 1485, 1593, 1645 and 2556 here: https://sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/mect/mect01.htm

And when I try to publish the discussion page I receive following message:

--- Error: information 	Warning: This action has been automatically identified as harmful.

Unconstructive edits will be quickly reverted, and egregious or repeated unconstructive editing will result in your account or IP address being blocked. If you believe this action to be constructive, you may submit it again to confirm it.

A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: various specific spammer habits. If you believe your edit was flagged in error, you may report it on the Wiktionary:Grease pit. ---
 * The problem is that you posted basically nothing but a couple of links. The abuse filter isn't smart enough to tell whether you're linking to a legitimate website, so it looks at whether you have a history of other edits (the system doesn't keep edit counts for anonymous/IP editors, so they always show as having 0 edits), and whether it's formatted like there's more to the edit than displaying links. If not, it blocks the edit just to be safe. I go through the logs for that filter every day, and you would be amazed at the sheer volume of spam that gets attempted all the time. Either it's bots that are trying to improve a site's search engine page rank by having as many different sites linking to it as possible, or website owners who are trying to post ads without paying for them. Nine times out of ten, the edits the filter blocks are dishonest garbage.


 * My advice is to create an account. There's a lot that people can learn from your IP address (here's a sample of what just one site knows about you) Or add more text, or remove things like the " https:// " that makes a clickable link out of it. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The problem is that I was not able to get through this filter even after hitting submit again! BTW I have static IP and I am not worried about information leaks due to this (and I know how to use proxy or Tor) --- I just believe in the idea of wiki being editable ad hoc by anyone without any red tape like account creation, hence I am not going to create one. 80.53.20.242 16:43, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Latin verb facio, alternative conjugations
I don't have any Lua coding facility, so I don't exactly know how to do this. I would like to add certain less-used forms of the Latin verb facio (to make; to do) to the conjugation table, rather than having them in explanatory notes or nowhere at all. In particular, under indicative future perfect, I want faxo, faxis, faxit, faxīmus, faxītis, faxint, under subjunctive perfect, I want faxim, faxis, faxit, faximus, faxitis, faxint, under indicative active pluperfect, I want feficeram, feficeras, feficerat, feficeramus, feficeratis, feficerant, under indicative future pluperfect, I want feficero, feficeris, feficerit, feficerimus, feficeritis, feficerint, under indicative active perfect, I want fefici, feficisti, feficit, feficimus, feficistis, feficerunt, under subjunctive active perfect, I want feficerim, feficeris, feficerit, feficerimus, feficeritis, feficerint, and under subjunctive active pluperfect, I want feficissem, feficisses, feficisset, feficissemus, feficissetis, feficissent.

Compared to what is used to-day, these are somewhat archaic alternatives, and certainly obsolescent if not obsolete, but they do fit established paradigms (see pedo, cado, and other Category:Latin_reduplicative_verbs), as well as facio dictionary entry and Google book, Latin grammar). For those looking for that pre-Classical style, having them presented in a table, as alternatives, would be invaluable.

Red links and blue links for coloured emoji?
Looking at Requested_entries_(Translingual) I note that it's impossible to tell whether a coloured emoji character has an article or not, since its colours override the normal red or blue link colour. This feels like a shortcoming. Can anything be done? Equinox ◑ 04:13, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You can do it with this CSS. Possibly this would have unintended side effects. DTLHS (talk) 04:30, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Ancient Greek adjectives in -υς
Hi! I noticed the adjectives in -υς (e.g. βαθύς, βαρύς) get a genitive in εως, while my textbook and dictionary suggest εος. Does anyone know if that's expected and if not, where to edit it?
 * I think it is ok now. Attn ! hopefully I did not damage something else at Module:grc-decl/decl/staticdata/paradigms ... &#8209;&#8209;Sarri.greek &#9835; |
 * I finally looked into this. The was meant for nouns like  and . Perhaps nobody noticed that it was wrong for adjectives before! I've edited the modules so that Module:grc-decl/decl/staticdata/paradigms handles the nouns once again, and Module:grc-decl/decl/data sets the genitive singular to  just for adjectives. It's a bit counterintuitive because the adjectives are much more common, but we generally put noun paradigms in the staticdata module and treat the adjectives as deviations from nouns. — Eru·tuon 20:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)


 * thank you. isn't the genitive of πῆχυς@LOGEION also -εος? And of γόνυ, is γόνατος? Also, i have checked all the -πήχυς compounds (adj or nouns, the masc gen is the same) [as Smyth gives [[δίπηχυς]] as an example of proparoxytone - notes at Talk:ἀμφίβραχυς -  where a form -εως is given only at Bailly, and I wonder if it means something attic, or a genitive.
 * The Module:grc-decl/decl/staticdata/paradigms is very nice, it would be great if next to each thing, there is an example (so, checking is easier for people like us, who do not know where this section is applied. Thank you, &#8209;&#8209;Sarri.greek &#9835; | 20:55, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * We probably based it on Smyth's Greek Grammar, which shows only . I thought was Ionic and Epic, not Attic or Koine, but while the LSJ does give Ionic citations (Herodotus, Hippocrates), there are some from Attic (Aristotle and Plato) and Koine (the Septuagint), so perhaps we should give both forms. The LSJ has more citations for  than for, so maybe it's more common! I'm not sure how to investigate this further because I wasn't the one who added most of the dialectal information. — Eru·tuon 00:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * , thank you, I appreciate all your work for greek. It is complicated... &#8209;&#8209;Sarri.greek &#9835; | 00:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * True It is πήχεως with omega. Stamatakos Grammar says «The expected -εος at Herodotus». But he does not say, if the behavior of gen. is different in adjectives. or compounds.or later words. For adjectives he agrees with Smyth: the masc. & neu. infelct like nouns. So, ἀμφίβραχυς which is not an adjective has -εως at Bailly.
 * Possibly, my thought is that when we have a compound +noun (πῆχυς) like δίπηχυς (@LOGEION) as Smyth says, the genitive follows the -εως noun.gentive ( my schoolbook gives -εος, assumed wrong by Smyth and Stamatakos ).
 * but if it is a compound +adjective (βραχύς) like adj. δίβραχυς (Bailly gives it as a noun), then i suspect it follows the adjective.genitive -εος. &#8209;&#8209;Sarri.greek &#9835; | 02:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * @Erutuon and @Sarri.greek thanks a lot for looking into it! I'm currently studying for my (Ancient Greek) exams so I can't look into it myself so thanks for changing it! Willem640 (talk) 12:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Coolest Tool Award 2021: Call for nominations
The third edition of the Coolest Tool Award is looking for nominations!

Tools play an essential role for the Wikimedia projects, and so do the many volunteer developers who experiment with new ideas and develop and maintain local and global solutions to support the Wikimedia communities. The Coolest Tool Award aims to recognize and celebrate the coolest tools in a variety of categories.

The awarded projects will be announced and showcased in a virtual ceremony in December. Deadline to submit nominations is October 27. More information: Coolest Tool Award. Thanks for your recommendations! -- SSethi (WMF) for the 2021 Coolest Tool Academy team 05:57, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Spanish adverb list
Hi. I hear you guys are pretty good at making lists. Can someone generate one of all Spanish adverbs ending in -mente not appearing in Category:Spanish words suffixed with -mente? And/or another one for all entries in Category:Spanish words suffixed with -mente that are not linked-to by the corresponding adjective? Gracias de antemano QuickPhyxa (talk) 21:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I did the second one for you using petscan - QuickPhyxa (talk) 08:29, 21 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Done them MooreDoor (talk) 22:15, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Chakma Transliteration
I have created a transliteration module for the Chakma script, Module:Cakm-translit. It explicitly supports the Chakma (code ccp) and Pali (code pi) languages.

How do I advise the future 'community of Chakma editors' (I see no evidence of current existence, though I know has added Chakma words) that for transliteration, they should consider using it rather than creating a new module Module:ccp-translit? One possible method would be to create a hard redirect from the latter to the former. At present, it has the flaw that it cannot work out whether to transliterate 𑄃𑄧 U+11127 CHAKMA VOWEL SIGN A as 'a', 'o' or 'ô'. Current, manual transliterations also use 'o' for 𑄃𑄮 U+1112E CHAKMA VOWEL SIGN O. The testcases show the manual and calculated transliterations for all 59 word lemmas with manual transliterations. --RichardW57 (talk) 17:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Adding for Proto-Hungarian to Module:etymology languages/data

 * I wonder if any of you could add  for Proto-Hungarian to Module:etymology languages/data (and maybe also to Module:languages/datax). This period in the history of Hungarian (between 1500/1000 BCE and 895 CE, i.e. after Proto-Ugric and before Old Hungarian) doesn't seem to be covered by any code, so currently it needs to be supplied in plain text whenever it's referenced (at the moment, in  as well as Reconstruction:Proto-Ugric/säptɜ and Reconstruction:Proto-Uralic/śerɜ, so it would be used e.g. in  and in ). It is not attested (the earliest attested records are from early Old Hungarian, except for  from 870) but many forms are reconstructed for this period (Zaicz’s etymology dictionary has 201 results for ). As far as its code is concerned, Proto-Mordvinic has "urj-mdv-pro", Proto-Permic has "urj-prm-pro", so I thought urj-hun-pro might be appropriate, though the format hun-pro may have some analogies as well. It could link to . Thank you. Adam78 (talk) 10:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I can add it into the data if there's consensus that it should exist - I'm not sure what our convention is with protolanguages with only one descendant (unless we consider Hungarian dialects to be separate descendants, I suppose). &mdash; surjection &lang;??&rang; 11:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about Ugric, and would appreciate 's input. In looking at the evidence here, I don't see anything compelling us to add it. We don't add every protolanguage that scholars have ever reconstructed, and not every term needs to be linked (after all, this is all internal comparison, to there will always be a Hungarian term to link to instead). —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * "Proto-Hungarian", in the usual early 1st millennium CE sense of this term in Hungarology, is kind of a misnomer / mistranslation and not the proto-language of the currently known Hungarian varieties (I believe the consensus is that all possible Old Hungarian era variants were levelled out by dialect mixing and the modern-day dialects show basically no divergences older than late medieval). If anything, it's the assumed proto-language of Hungarian and the unattested Volga Magyar, so I don't see us needing it anytime soon. A case like -p ~ fiú comes the closest but could just as well date already further back to circa Proto-Ugric; while the other cases mentioned by Adam seem to basically mean Old Hungarian and could be tagged as that if we ever wanted their redlink entries. --Tropylium (talk) 16:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

This Word Does Not Exist
If you're running out of ideas when writing entries: someone created ML-based dictionary definitions:, including made up usage examples. Apparently not using any Wiktionary data though. It would be fun to see this applied to etymologies as well. – Jberkel 20:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Beer_parlour/2020/June! Equinox ◑ 20:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Can somebody create these two useful R: templates for me?
I would do it myself but I don't know how and I believe one needs special permissions anyway.

One for the site berndeutsch.ch. URLs have the form.

One for pons.com. We already have but it links to the translation pages, not the German entry pages which sometimes have more information, see e.g.  vs this page. Fytcha (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * An R: template for de.thefreedictionary.com would also be useful. This one should be really simple to implement and it already exists on de.wikt. Fytcha (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll take a look. – Jberkel 15:40, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I've created and added a def parameter to, there is already   – Jberkel 22:29, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you a lot! As a last request, would it be possible to move to ? I should have pointed that out earlier but that site only concerns gsw. Fytcha (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Fytcha (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Module errors in Module:tl-headword
After edited this module, a large number of entries using tl-noun with one or more empty parameters are in CAT:E with the message 'the parameter "2" is not used by this template'. I don't want to revert without understanding the code, but having 93 entries in CAT:E is simply unacceptable. For one thing, there were at least 3 entries with unrelated, easily fixable errors that were hiding in plain sight in among them. There may be more, but I don't have time right now to go through all of them (there's also a Korean entry that needs to look at). Before this happened, the category had about 15 or 16 entries with memory errors, so there are probably about 75 with this one.

Can someone who knows Lua determine whether this is a fixable bug? If the errors are due to empty parameters that shouldn't be there, can someone with a bot remove them? Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 05:15, 28 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I just fixed the error upon receiving your ping, which has something to do with my addition of support for feminine and masculine forms. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 05:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * @Chuck Entz Solved it, having moved the support for gendered forms to the noun functions (only nouns have that, especially Spanish-derived ones), plus changes to follow the coding used to handle Baybayin spellings, which worked. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 07:23, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Audio files, Lingua Libre, ogg
Other Macedonian users and I are talking about adding audio files to Macedonian entries and I was wondering whether the recordings have to be in .ogg format. Help:Audio_pronunciations says that Ogg Vorbis is the "format of choice", but doesn't explicitly exclude or even mention other formats, and it appears not to have been rigorously updated over the years. Furthermore, in section 1.5., it sort of recommends Lingua Libre, but all the words recorded on that site by another Macedonian user have ended up in .wav format. Can we add those to the corresponding Macedonian pages or do we have to convert them to .ogg first? I see that there are Polish entries like maczuga where the file is in .wav format and works even so. Martin123xyz (talk) 08:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Ogg files are compressed audio files, and wavs are uncompressed so the size difference can be considerable: the wav for maczuga is 768k while the ogg files for hello are all ~100k (which still seems large to me). Luckily, it's easy to convert from wav to ogg, so it's not a problem to create a bunch of wav files using Lingua Libre and then later convert them to ogg. If you search for utilities to 'batch convert wav ogg' and you'll find lots of free options. JeffDoozan (talk) 13:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * MP3 is now patent-free and can be used as well on commons, so maybe the "format of choice" part should be updated. If possible the source format should be lossless, it will be transcoded automatically. – Jberkel 13:20, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the explanations. We will look into converting the .wav files into .ogg files. Martin123xyz (talk) 06:03, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Translation Boxes and
Can we please have exactly the same parameters as for ? I.e. checkboxes for {m,f,n}x{s,p} and no double confirmation for capitalized translations. Fytcha (talk) 14:42, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ &mdash; surjection &lang;??&rang; 21:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I've just tested it and it works like a charm. Fytcha (talk) 21:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Bug in tr.wiktionary gadget for adding translations
Turkish Wiktionary uses a javascript gadget to add translations, very much like English Wiktionary. But the new translations are not placed in correct alphabetic order. In particular, Chinese entries (Chinese is "Çince" in Turkish) are not put at "C/Ç" (between Bulgarca/Bulgarian and Danca/Danish), but at the end of the list, as if unicode position was used instead of alphabetic sorting order. Here are four examples of incorrect additions: 1, 2, 3, 4. I think the relevant code is tr:MediaWiki:Gadget-CeviriEkleyici.js (çeviri = translation, ekle = add). But perhaps the problem is not in the algorithm (since it does work for languages with other names), but in some website parameter for sorting order (LC_COLLATE)? Who can give clues? --LA2 (talk) 19:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The bug has been mostly fixed now, by replacing "a < b" with "a.localeCompare(b, 'tr') < 0". Another part of the problem, related to sorting Chinese as a sublanguage, remains. --LA2 (talk) 15:24, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

and N-syllable categories
is a 2-syllable word but it is not added to the Category:German_2-syllable_words. Usually that categorization is taken care of by, however in this specific case, the use of a narrow transcription [] instead of a broad one // seems to make the difference. Is there any reason for why narrow transcriptions are not taken into consideration when categorizing for syllables? Fytcha (talk) 21:35, 29 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Same issue with . Alternatively (if that with won't change), can't we make it such that  also adds the N-syllable word category? Fytcha (talk) 21:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Please help to address problematic behaviour (harassment, piracy, sockpuppetry) on other wiki

 * Resolve_massive_copyright_infringement_on_Wiktionary_in_Esperanto
 * I_need_to_solve_the_problem_that_I_consider_important_in_the_eo.wiktionary.org_project

The Esperanto wiktionary has a long history of poor quality, copyright infringements (promoted and committed by sysops) and mismanagement. The third RFC about more-or-less same subject was recently created. I am temporarily sysop there, the only one. The latest RFC was not created by me but a user "Vami". I was harassed by "Vami" for 3 weeks, then I dared to block for 24 hours. "Vami" overreacted (as expected) and started that RFC. The case comprises a mixture of problems and conflicts, among others following:
 * Harassment by "Vami" (an obviously very intelligent person) against me, including but not limited to:
 * calling me "nazi" (by creating a template "antinazi" and introducing a language code "antinazi" in another template, from the context undoubtedly targeting me)
 * sending me to school ("you must attend a school")
 * calling me "stupid" many times (mostly avoiding the most direct way "you are stupid" on my discussion page, instead burying the claim in subordinate clauses, questions, semi-vague hypotheses, edit comments, ...)
 * creating a post in the Beer Parlour beginning with "Particularly for idiots" (from the context undoubtedly targeting me)
 * persistently accusing me of vandalism, destruction, theft of time and more
 * I can immediately and permanently block this user, or could have done it one month ago ... yet the probem is that I do not want to be judge in my own case, and "Vami" is very deliberately exploiting this problem. In any other wiki, with this level of rudeness, "Vami" would have got blocked long ago for a long time. Shall I block, and for how long?

For the sake of completeness, I have to confirm that "Vami" also has made substantial contributions to that wiki. Taylor 49 (talk) 19:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Massive copyright infringement (comitted long ago by a former, and formally still appointed sysop, NOT by "Vami")
 * I suspect that "Vami" is a new account of an old problem user blocked somewhere. Upon arrival at Esperanto wiktionary "Vami" had less than 200 global edits. But within just few weeks "Vami" advanced to sophisticated template edits and operating a bot. A behaviour very unususal for a newbie. I have no clue where to search for "bad old" accounts of "Vami", they can be anywhere. "Vami" is Russian and I do not understand that language.
 * I don't know what this has to do with en.wikt or why this is in the grease pit which is for technical discussions. &mdash; surjection &lang;??&rang; 21:26, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Is it possible to blacklist certain characters from translation boxes?
in particular. Duden.de contains them on all their pages and I've just almost accidentally entered a term containing those characters into Wiktionary without noticing. Fytcha (talk) 20:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Theoretically yes by using abuse filters, but if you use tradder, I don't know how that would react - it might just spit out a cryptic error. I guess it'd also be possible to mod tradder to warn about them or even remove soft hyphens automatically. &mdash; surjection &lang;??&rang; 21:25, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I assume tradder is the translation box interface in non-editing mode? If so: Yes, removing soft hyphens automatically when entering a term there would be even better. I don't think there's ever a reason to want to have them there. Fytcha (talk) 21:49, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I think writing  between lines 1907 and 1908 here would do the trick. Fytcha (talk) 00:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see how adding any code into the data module will help matters. It'd have to be added somewhere in the main module. &mdash; S URJECTION / T / C / L / 11:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)