Wiktionary:Information desk/2017/November

Could someone please add the Belorussian verb "вучыць"?
I noticed that the Belorussian verb "вучыць" is missing from Wikipedia and I would like (please) someone to create this page. Thanks.

It's a verb meaning to learn in Belorussian.
 * Hello, and welcome on Wiktionary (we're not Wikipedia, but a sister project). I've created вучыць for you; could I ask you to complete it? Does it mean "to teach" as well? --Barytonesis (talk) 15:47, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

What do you think? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B2%D1%83%D1%87%D1%8B%D1%86%D1%8C 21:01, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello again. That's a good start, but there are several problems, which is why I've hidden it for now. The main one is that you apparently meant to put this at варочаць, not вучыць. Is that right? If yes, you can click on that red link and copy paste what you've added.
 * Another thing: to write a link, you can use the following symbols: xxx . So кароткі will give кароткі.
 * Last thing: please don't forget to sign your messages with ~ . --Barytonesis (talk) 21:12, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Patchman123 (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

inflection tables: do you encourage making entries for all types?
from sarri.greek 2017.11.04. I am very very new here. I see a lot of red words in inflection tables. Do you encourage creating entries for aaaaaaall these types? It's the easiest thing I can do at the moment. Thanks. sarri.greek (talk) 06:12, 4 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, they should all have entries created for them. The basic forms, or lemmas, have a complete entry (such as ). The inflected forms just need a simple explanation and be linked to the basic form (lemma). For example, . —Stephen (Talk) 10:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

from sarri: ok thank you... I was stand-by for your ok. I shall do as much as I can, to practice :)) sarri.greek (talk) 11:06, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You don't have to make entries for them, but you can if you want. I never do so for Hindi because frankly it's boring. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 17:28, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * from sarri to Ary: lol, for people like me (computer-ignorami) to do that (types of existing lemmata) is an άθλος. But we are willing. Overseers of wiktionaries should use us for a List of Simple Tasks for Newcomers, supplying a List of Examples of wikitexting. sarri.greek (talk) 01:24, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

template to be cleaned
Regarding https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:HSK_list_of_Mandarin_words/Advanced_Mandarin#w, there's a formatting error, starting at letter "w", repeating "Template:l" in a column several times. --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:47, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Seaking greek language administrators/portals: the greek [o]
from sarri.greek 2017.11.05. Re: IPA for o in Greek Modern and Greek Ancient. Attn: administrators of Greek Modern / Greek Ancient portals in en.wiktionary, in el.wiktionary. Or, if there is an I.P.A. administrator throughout wiktionaries.> As a user, I check a word in all its available languages, and the inconsistency was remarkable. Should I post this at the Discussion pages of all the links above? Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 07:46, 5 November 2017 (UTC) P.S. I posted, then look at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Information_desk/ but message is not there. sarri.greek (talk) 08:00, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I am a newcomer, and before i start editing, I need to clarify the I.P.A. for greek letter omicron ⟨ο⟩ in wiktionaries.
 * I am seaking the webmasters of Hellenic languages. Are there portals?
 * These instruction pages use the Open-mid [o], as in all greek dictionaries i have seen
 * en.wikt.IPA Pronuncation
 * en.wikt.Greek Pronunciation
 * These instruction pages use the Close-mid [ɔ] which i find confusing for both readers and editors. I have never seen it before for greek, excpet for historical reconstructed archaic pronunciation.
 * fr.wikt.Prononciation Grec
 * el.wikt.Pronunciation Guide Οδηγός Προφοράς
 * el.wikt.Pron.Greek Προφορά ελληνικά
 * and in en.wikipedia:
 * Close-mid o#wikipedia OK for greek
 * Open-mid ɔ#wikipedia no such greek thing here
 * Our own page Appendix:Greek pronunciation specifies /o/ as the IPA for Greek ο and ω, so that's what I would recommend using here. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

from sarri to THANK you for being so prompt. So, it is ok for me to start correcting all weird Os, referring to this permission by you? But you write' our own meaning the en.wikt, I presume, in general. For the other wikt (el, fr, etc) I have to get permission from other Administators? Thank you VERY much. :) sarri.greek (talk) 13:45, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You don't get permission from admins to make edits. That's not how wikis work. You just edit boldly in good faith, and remain polite and open to discussion if anyone objects. When you correct Greek transcriptions, you're not doing so because I as an admin told you that you could; you're doing so because you believe it's an improvement to Wiktionary to do so. If anyone objects, you can point them to Appendix:Greek pronunciation and say you're making the transcriptions consistent with that page. If they disagree with that page, it should be discussed among the larger group of Greek-language editors, preferably in the Beer Parlor. And yes, these conventions apply only to English Wiktionary; it's entirely possible that el-wikt and fr-wikt etc. have different conventions. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:00, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

So best would be to find reliable sources and to mention them at WT:About Greek or Appendix:Greek pronunciation. The sources could support English wikipedia's statement, or contradict en.wp in which case en.wp needs to be improved too, or they could have different statements in which case there could be qualifiers and/or a vote to determine English wiktionary's preference. -80.133.111.184 16:08, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Appendix:Greek pronunciation is for Modern Greek only and contains a disclaimer: "Disclaimer: This page does not yet reflect community policy.". It could be that the appendix uses [] where // would be correct. English wikipedia states that Modern Greek [o] is dialectal and that [o̞] (Mid back rounded vowel, also cp. Modern Greek phonology) is standard. By English wikipedia - which is not reliable source and not a good argument to change anything - best would be to change it to /o/, [o] (dialectal), [o̞] (standard).
 * It's true that we should be focusing on broadly phonemic transcriptions and so we should primarily use //, though we can also use [] in addition. But it's also true that the symbol [o̞] is meaningless unless you've already defined what [o] is, because [o̞] simply means "a vowel more open than [o]", so clearly you have to know where your [o] is before you can know what vowel is more open than it. And where [o] is can be different from one language to the next: the Greek [o] and the Turkish [o] and the Spanish [o] might all be slightly different from each other while still all being [o]. It's important to remember that the IPA vowel symbols do not represent only the extreme positions of the so-called ; each vowel symbol represents a whole area of vowel space. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:54, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

from sarri to & 80.133.111.184 I thank you both:<BR> [Ευχαριστώ.mp3] I don't know if my voice's 'ώ' is [o] or [o̞] or [ɔ] But, ευχαριστώ, I'll start correcting. P.S. -folk linguistics might be amusing for you: there was a great greek actor, Manos Katrakis, whose recitations are legendary. People said that they could HEAR the Omicrons and the Omegas. - sarri.greek (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Could we also conjugate Варочаць, please?
I was wondering if we could conjugate Варочаць?

I am sorry if I confused Варочаць with вучыць.

21:07, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

It's another Belarusian verb.

21:26, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * We can, but what does it mean? --Barytonesis (talk) 21:31, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

To Return; come back. 22:08, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Done, at варочаць. Can you review it? --Barytonesis (talk) 22:21, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

languages offered for a certain entry
I am concerned about the languages offered for a certain entry in the English version of wiktionary. That is, for https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/a, there're 99 languages with the term "a" in their lexicon, all of them explained in the English language (for example, for french, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/a#Etymology_3_12 the third etymology reads "third-person singular present indicative of avoir".

Yet, you could choose the French interface to see the same info., https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/a#Forme_de_verbe.

Now, I want to limit the languages which show the term that's been searched, not those of the interface offered on the lelft of the page. --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:12, 6 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if I'm understanding you properly, but are you saying that we should only have English in a? That would defeat the purpose of the project, which is to "describe all words of all languages using definitions and descriptions in English". — justin(r)leung { (t...) 01:33, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "interface"? The list of interwiki links in the sidebar? — Eru·tuon 01:38, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Never did I say that. It would improve the search enabling the user to choose what languages they're interested in, instead of returning results for every single one that Wiktionary has in its database (If you want to take a look at a certain category that term is indexed into, you have to scroll all the long way down and read a block tens of categories meant for other languages, which is really chaotic and impractical).


 * Yes, I wrote that I do not mean "those languages" in that list in the sidebar.
 * Okay, so I got that cleared up. I still am not sure what your idea is, as your wording is not particularly clear. Are you talking about hiding particular language sections in an entry? — Eru·tuon 20:01, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Rather not returning such languages if stated so. I do not know if the new advanced search will enable it https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/AdvancedSearch. --Backinstadiums (talk) 07:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, it sounds like that project is just about making a search form that makes it easier for people to use the existing search options (incategory, hastemplate, insource, etc.), not creating any new search features. — Eru·tuon 08:11, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Furthermore, the user should be able to choose the order in which the languages show up after the search.--Backinstadiums (talk) 08:25, 7 November 2017 (UTC)


 * This is one of many functions that Wiktionary desperately needs but seem impossible to implement due to limitations in the wiki. (For example, automatic redirects from Simplified to Traditional Chinese, so Simplified users are not at a disadvantage.) ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 07:48, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've already stated it's time to start over the whole structure if necessary to solve the redirecting issue. Redirects are the reason why I posted this https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix_talk:HSK_list_of_Mandarin_words/Beginning_Mandarin#Appendix:HSK_list_of_Mandarin_words--Backinstadiums (talk) 07:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)


 * , it is difficult to understand what you are saying. It sounds like your entry for a is a very long page from top to bottom, which includes many, many languages. If so, that is the old format. In your PREFERENCES you can select the new format, which will show you the English page only: PREFERENCES > GADGETS – Enable tabbed languages. All the other languages will appear as tabs down the left side of the page (in alphabetical order). As for the sort order, we use the order of the English Alphabet with English at the top, because this is the English Wiktionary. The French Wiktionary uses the French alphabet with French at the top. At the bottom of the English page (when you select the modern format), the categories are only the English categories. If you click the French tab to see the French page, you will see the French page only, and the categories will be the French categories. Is this what you're talking about? —Stephen (Talk) 10:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. This look more what I am looking for. Still two issues. First, the column is too broad, and it takes a lot of space. Secondly, I still need to set a custom order, for I am just interested in a reduced number of languages. --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:31, 11 November 2017 (UTC)


 * , the column width is set according to the widest language name in the list, so I don't think it can be adjusted (unless we make the language names small). As for the sort order, I don't know of any way to make it customizable. However, if you search for a language word such as French, and then you go to another word such as très, it remembers that you first searched for French, and so it shows you très in French as well. —Stephen (Talk) 11:45, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Could I change the names of the languages by their ISO abbreviations? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:47, 11 November 2017 (UTC)


 * You could ask them at WT:GP. That's where the programming experts are. If it could be done, they should know. —Stephen (Talk) 15:00, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

motorboat - mortarboard
can these two words be pronounced the same way. thank you. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:219E:66C4:EF6D:97FA 15:53, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * No. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. --Spreaderofwords (talk) 16:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * But only if you're not a native speaker. Or are there accents of English that have both a – merger and final devoicing? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I would think there would be differences in vowel length, too. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

History of bangladesh.
In bengali language please. This is important to bengali people. বাংলা ভাষার লোকেরা বাংলাদেশের ইতিহাস জানতে ও পড়তে চায় বাংলা ভাষায়৷ Wikipedia তে বাংলাদেশের ইতিহাস include করুন৷


 * This is a dictionary. Try . Equinox ◑ 15:58, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

What does [Ws] mean?
Specifically, what does it mean as it is used on this page: Thesaurus:custom-made Thank you. --71.121.143.245 20:27, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

p.s.--Is this the right forum to ask this kind of question? and/or is there a page that defines Wiktionary's shorthand/abbreviations? --71.121.143.245 20:30, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
 * We just changed our thesaurus from "Wikisaurus" to "Thesaurus", and we haven't figured out yet what to replace the "Ws" with. Chuck Entz (talk)
 * lists the abbreviations for namespaces. — Eru·tuon 20:40, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Search Engine Optimization
Does Wiktionary have search engine optomization? I added the word Gesh, and cannot seem to find it just by making a google search.
 * If you're referring to the entry gesh, it is not hard to find by googling. We do not spam links, which is what SEO seems to mostly consist of. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 01:51, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

pronunciation of Russian audio files on iPad
The Russian audio pronunciation will not play on the iPad. I have read about the "ogg" files - but still have no idea how to fix this problem. I am not a techie. Is there a way round this? A way to get the audio files recognised and played while online?


 * I don't know anything about iPad or iTunes or any of that stuff. However, this might be helpful: Quicktime plugin. —Stephen (Talk) 00:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

IRC inquiry: Chinese dialectical information
Question just asked in IRC. I did not discover a discussion regarding this on BP, GP, so I am asking on xyr behalf. - Amgine/t &middot; e 14:53, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


 * As recent editors of the module. - TheDaveRoss  14:56, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It should be fixed. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:17, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for making such quick work of the bug. - TheDaveRoss  19:45, 20 November 2017 (UTC)


 * No problem! It was just a minor error in the logic that caused it. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 20:23, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

wiktionary audios don't play on Mac OS 10.13.1
Wiktionary audio pronunciation files do not play on Mac OS 10.13.1. Have downloaded and installed VLC - still have a problem.
 * Yes, me too. I left a message at AudioRoom on 2017.10.26. but the room is abandoned. I copy here the message.<BR>All wikipedia, wiktionary oggs: i click on that player, and <B>i hear nothing</B>. I download them and play them with my VLC or WindowsMediaPlayer: it <B>cuts off the last syllable</B> in all short mp3s, oggs, etc. Apparently there is something wrong with me not the oggs. But still, I go to external pages and i hear fine. (e.g. cambridgedictionaries) Ευχαριστώ.mp3] Thanks sarri.greek (talk) 21:06, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I just realized we have to click on that round icon and choose MP3. I thought it was meant as work-icon for the uploaders. :( Is there a Category/List words with audio? Thank you. sarri.greek (talk) 10:57, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is a category in each language that has audio files available. Just replace {Language} with the English name of the language: Category:[Language] terms with audio links. —Stephen (Talk) 11:32, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you I ll copy. sarri.greek (talk) 11:58, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Latin perfect passive participles
A great number of Latin perfect passive participles are listed as future passive participles in the etymology section of their articles. I imagine most of these articles were auto-generated (evidently incorrectly). I have manually corrected several over the past months, including just recently those of affossus and lubricatus (if you check their revision histories, you can see that before my edit they were displayed as future passive participles). Perhaps there is a more efficient, systematic way to correct these? Dylanvt (talk) 21:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
 * ran the bot that created the mistaken etymologies, so it is his duty to find the incorrect entries and hopefully fix them. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 01:49, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I am currently scanning all members of the category Category:Latin perfect participles, changing any occurrence of "Future passive participle" to "Perfect passive participle". Please let me know if I have missed any. SemperBlotto (talk) 02:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC) (See user contributions for SemperBlottoBot for details)

active translators
Which editors are currently adding translations into foreign languages? Could you put your hands up so I know which languages to add translation requests for? Thanks. ---&#62; Tooironic (talk) 13:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I can do some decent Spanish--I work on that and Portuguese some. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:23, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tooironic. I appreciate the addition of a request for any non-niche sense lacking Portuguese translations. By niche I mean things like juggling terminology, the names of Siberian cities or little-known plants or animals not found in Portuguese-speaking regions. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:31, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * ahah, I hate this kind of requests! --Barytonesis (talk) 17:51, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I add Mongolian, although the backlog is already around 900 terms. If the term is unambiguous enough, I sometimes add translations for other Siberian languages as well. Crom daba (talk) 05:14, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Italian, some French. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Irish, Welsh, German, Lower Sorbian, Burmese when I can find it in multiple dictionaries. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:36, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I can do Hindi and some Sanskrit, but there is a huge backlog. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 20:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Dictionary dumping
If you find a dictionary, and dump every word from it, particularly from a language with little to no presence on the wiki, is it a violation of some kind? TriplePlusUngood (talk) 09:47, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * If the dictionary is under copyright protection, yes, it's a copyright violation and must be removed. If the dictionary is in the public domain or licensed freely, it's not a violation, but the entries should still bear a template indicating the source. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:34, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you have any particular dictionary in mind?__Gamren (talk) 12:23, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd found an excellent Ch'orti' mayan dictionary, with about 9000 entries, each with one or more example sentences translated to both Spanish and English, but it's unfortunately not free. It's an interesting legal hurdle considering how sparsely-documented languages could practically belong to a copyright holder. TriplePlusUngood (talk) 15:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


 * But if you do do this, just don't tell them about it or you may end up having to delete it all. . --Lirafafrod (talk) 12:39, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Discussion of an entry in the Tea room?
I would like to discuss an entry and being more familiar with Wikipedia, I'm inclined to start a new section on the entry's discussion page but I gather that Wiktionary entry discussion pages get very few views and I see discussions of individual entries in the Tea room. Are there any guidelines for deciding which of the two to choose for a discussion? Also, why don't editors post a notice in the Tea room with a link to the section they have created on an entry's discussion page? To me, this makes more sense than having the discussion in the Tea room. Thanks in advance. Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 18:51, 25 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Re "why don't...": I suppose because it would fragment the discussions more, rather than us being able to follow all current/ongoing discussions (there are never all that many) on this page instead. And clicking all those links would get tiresome. If you post on the entry's talk page then those who have edited the page in the past are likely to see it (via watchlist); others are not. Equinox ◑ 19:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Baltimore English Pronoun yo
It did fail RFV before. Is a study now present in the entry sufficient for attestation, if the study claims to have collected at least three (independently) usages and presents them? Without such usages claimed to be collected it's obviously not sufficient (WT:CFI, WT:WDL). -80.133.108.40 03:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * An interesting case study. I don't know if we've ever used linguistic fieldwork to attest a WDL like English before, though we certainly accept it for small LDLs. Provided the study itself is durably archived and reports on observed uses, rather than mere mentions, of the word, I'd be in favor of allowing it. —Mahāgaja <small style="font-size:85%;">(formerly Angr) · talk 10:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * But one person, the linguist transcribing the speech, decided how to spell it. Compare your response to a somewhat different, but still relatable, case of using linguistic fieldwork to attest English here. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 16:19, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * My answer there referred to example sentences made up by the linguist to illustrate the word under discussion, not necessarily tokens taken directly from speakers (parallel to our distinction between usexes and quotes), and my only real objection to it was the fact that it was written in all caps, which is unlikely to reflect any actual written usage, whereas if ever gets written down it probably really does get spelled . (Re-reading the discussion you linked to, I suspect the reason "BIN" was capitalized in that text was so much not to distinguish it from other senses of  as to show stress: She bin married is something like  and means "she's been married" while She BIN married is  and means something "she's been married for a long time".) —Mahāgaja <small style="font-size:85%;">(formerly Angr) · talk 16:31, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Undefined translations
What are Undefined translations (Category:Undefined translations)? How do you find them on a page? What should be done with them? —Stephen (Talk) 18:09, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * on maternal aunt, it's because of *: Teochew: 阿姨, 姨 --see the  part. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:17, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * , thanks. —Stephen (Talk) 18:30, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

placing of See also
While doing inflection-types pages, I was wondering about the placing of 'See also' in two versions: Which one should i follow as pattern? Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 09:36, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * as in ἐθνάρχαι according to EntryLayout#Before
 * or as in ἐθνάρχου according to EntryLayout#After
 * I always use the first format - as it is independent of any language section. SemperBlotto (talk) 09:39, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course. Normally, I did too. But then, I felt somehow that if I am to do many inflectional pages, the reader must be able to see the See also words. But ok. I'll leave it if you like it better. sarri.greek (talk) 09:47, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't add these on non-lemmas at all. —Rua (mew) 16:54, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I would put a "see also" item at the top if it is orthographically related (that is, a simple difference of capitalization or diacritic, or a version with characters swapped for visually similar characters, or an equivalent in another script), but in the language section if it is related in some other way (for instance, in its meaning). — Eru·tuon 20:00, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * So, if should be listed in the entry on, I would put it under the language section, because it is related by being a similar inflected form of the Modern Greek equivalent, while I would put  at the top of , because it is orthographically related. Like Rua, however, I don't add Modern Greek equivalents to nonlemma entries. — Eru·tuon 20:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Terms in other languages don't go under "See also" anyway. That section is only for terms in the same language, like "Related terms". —Rua (mew) 20:36, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you all for contemplating on this. cleared up for me the distinction of scriptDiff v meaningDiff which is muddled for infl.types. The solution is also wouldn't add these on non-lemmas at alll, by  and Eru. Thanks, sarri.greek (talk) 21:17, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I wouldn't link to in, but I would link to  in . — Eru·tuon 21:21, 30 November 2017 (UTC)