Wiktionary:Information desk/2018/January

Citations talk namespace
Well, I accidentally came across this namespace today. I've never seen it before, but apparently it exists. But why does it exist? There are literally no pages in this namespace, and whenever you view an empty page in the namespace, it says "Please discuss citations on the entry's main talk page, Talk:pagename, not here." Is it just because of technical limitations? Have there been any attempts to delete this talk namespace from the system? PseudoSkull (talk) 18:01, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Every namespace comes with a talk namespace. That's just how the software works. —Rua (mew) 20:48, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Checking for new posts in discussion forums
I sometimes participate in discussions at various forums such as the Tea Room, Requests for Verification, and so on. What I don't understand is how I am supposed to know when someone posts a new message to a thread that I have participated in, either in direct reply to me or otherwise. I know that there is a "ping" command, or whatever it's called, which generates an alert, but often people do not use that, and anyway it would be highly tiresome to have to "ping" everyone who had contributed to a lengthy thread every time one posted a comment. Of course, I can check a few recent threads manually, but it is clearly impractical to check dozens and dozens of historical threads each time I log on. How do other people manage this? Is there some feature that I haven't discovered yet to facilitate this? Mihia (talk) 18:39, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, I just check back at the pages every so often to see responses. I also have all the discussion pages on my watchlist, so I know which discussions are going on. So yes, I do dig through the other discussions to find the one I'm in. PseudoSkull (talk) 18:59, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Sometimes at the big pages I just use the browser's search function to look for my user name. That way I can see if anyone has responded to me in a thread, even when it's no longer the most recent edit to the page. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies. As far as the watchlist solution is concerned, for a forum like the Tea Room, which has a different underlying page each month, as far as I can tell, do you need to add a separate watchlist entry for each month, or is there a way to watch the whole thing just once? Also, I suppose there's no way to watch individual threads (sections)? Mihia (talk) 21:47, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

デレデレ = verb?
In the etymology of and, the word  is mentioned, meaning "to become lovey-dovey". That sounds like a verb sense to me, but does not have any. Is it missing a verb sense? Thanks. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:21, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Template talk:etyl
Where is the deletion discussion about this template? I couldn't find it in RFDO either. Shouldn't this be archived so a curious user like me can view it? I want to know why this template that seemed pretty useful can't be used anymore. PseudoSkull (talk) 20:01, 3 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it's because we're now supposed to use specific etymology types (prefix, affix, bor=borrowing, der=derived, etc.) which have a lang parameter and can therefore automatically categorise into "English words prefixed with tele-" or whatever. Etyl alone doesn't let us categorise that way. Equinox ◑ 20:15, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * etyl alone does categorize, but it doesn't add a link to an entry, so it always has to be used in conjunction with m. Thus you have to write " " instead of " ". I think most people find the latter option preferable, not only because it's less typing but also because it eliminates the risk of etyl and m accidentally pointing to different languages (e.g. " "). Also, etyl doesn't allow us to differentiate between borrowings, inherited terms, and other derivations, which using bor and inh in addition to der does. But I do agree that it would be good for Template talk:etyl to at least link to the various discussions that led to its deprecation. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:20, 4 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to write "from"? Oh, wait, just don't write "from". An etymology by definition tells you where something comes from. Equinox ◑ 02:31, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Help modifying a template
I would like to be able to create compound verbs like this one for Azeri with the possibility of specifying the phrase head, like it is possible for Persian compounded verbs, like this one. I guess it's a template feature:. It also creates a category of all compound verbs formed with this "light verb". Can anyone help me modify the Azeri verb templates for this purpose? Historierummet (talk) 15:52, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you want exactly — the Azeri template behaves just like the Persian one. Is it just the category that you want? The category is applied by the conjugation template, not . —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 02:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * can I specify phrase head as well with current templates? Like specify that a compound is a compounded verb with the verb as the phrase head. Historierummet (talk) 13:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You're talking about the grammatical head, right? But in these templates, "head" is used in its lexicographic sense (cf. first sense of ). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right. I guess all I really want is to be able to have this category for Azeri: Category:Persian compound verbs by verbal element Historierummet (talk) 14:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay. That will have to be done using the conjugation templates, like in Persian. It's beyond my abilities, but I can help translate your needs into what is actually required. One question, though: is the number of light verbs small and finite in Azeri, or is it a potentially long/indeterminate list? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 14:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It is small and finite, although clearly more diverse than in Persian, that compounds almost everything with kardan  'do'. Historierummet (talk) 15:07, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Suggestions on linking a term
I edited chop to remove chop chop as a derived term because it comes from a different etymology than any of the four presented for the word. Instead, I inserted it at the top of the entry because it's definitely a term that someone would want to see linked from chop but I'm not sure of the best practice. Thoughts? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:49, 7 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Per current policy (?) or current practice anyway, that is wrong: it should not be in the see-also at the top because it isn't an orthographic variant (like face vs. fáce). I'd just use "See also". Equinox ◑ 11:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 11:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * since this is for newbies: so that actually means that as soon as one little detail of a word changes, e.g. a capital letter instead of a small letter as in "Amnesie" (german) versus "amnesie" (dutch and italian) there should be distinct pages for each word? Shendoah (talk)
 * Yes. DTLHS (talk) 04:54, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Template for rare synonyms
Which template is used for when you want to put before a link to a synonym in a 'synonyms' section to show that it is rare. I know about 'sense' for different senses, but it's not a different sense. Thanks. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 16:43, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * following individual links does the job. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:45, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Taking information from copyrighted sources
Re: a discussion I have entered into with (see his userpage), is it allowed to copy words from copyrighted dictionaries into Wiktionary? I didn't think it was, am I wrong? Thank you. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 16:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No, absolutely not. Not even in quotation marks with a reference to the work in question. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:19, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Copyright only applies to how you say things, not what, given that the meaning of a word itself isn't copyrightable. When it comes to definitions, there is often no room for creativity. If a word means tree, there aren't any other words that you can use. I would say that if a definition consists of just a single word, there's no way to rephrase it while still saying what you need to, hence no way to copyright it. —Rua (mew) 20:48, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for you opinions. Just to point out, this discussion has become more complicated on his user page. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 20:55, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Possibly incorrect meaning for 지켜보다
The page for 지켜보다 gives the meaning "To look after; to take care of." I can't find a source for that meaning, and other dictionaries give the meaning "watch, observe, eye" Naver and "Watch" Google Translate.

Is that enough of a body of evidence to change the page?


 * Thank you - I have modified the definition, please take a look. Wyang (talk) 13:31, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Did you find a source for "To look after"? The only sources I could find all seemed to link back here.


 * The Korean word's definition is broader than "to watch; to observe" IMO, and in some cases would be better rendered by "to take care of; to look after". The  gives the definition of "주의를 기울여 살펴보다." and has an example of "아내는 병든 아들을 밤새 지켜보았다.", which doesn't mean wife was purely observing the sick son all night. The Daum Dictionary has an example of "그는 계속 병원에 머무르면서 아버님의 임종을 지켜보고 장례식에 참석한 뒤 미국으로 돌아갔다." (He stayed in the hospital without a break, took care of his dying father, attended his funeral, then returned to the United States.) Wyang (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That's really helpful.

audio file of purge
I'm hearing "porridge". --2A02:2788:A4:F44:F3:FF55:60D4:3DB2 16:20, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Sounds like "purge" to me. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 20:00, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

change piying font
Can I change the font of pinyin romanizations with some chunk of java in personal page? I'd rather use the font of the label "Pinyin" itself --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You probably don't need JavaScript. (Note that Java is a different language.) Pinyin is not marked in the same way HTML-wise everywhere on Wiktionary, but in pinyin entries (for instance, ) and pronunciation tables, it is marked with the language code, so you can add css to your common.css to format those instances. But that won't cover usage examples (which are completely unmarked) or transliterations in  or  (which use   if the language in the template is  ), and   might even be used for text written in Han script as well. So there is no way to change the font for all pinyin at the moment. That's unfortunate. — Eru·tuon 21:37, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

open-book
When I try to edit this page, I see a big block with text-editor looking text under textbooks if I put a comma next to it. What is this? Why is that happening? PseudoSkull (talk) 01:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)


 * This happens when a new line begins with a space. There's a line break in there that you thought was just word wrap. Equinox ◑ 01:22, 19 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Man, I feel like an ass. I've seen that happen in wiki software a lot and never quite new why, and it always frustrated me more than anything. Thanks for clarifying! PseudoSkull (talk) 02:49, 19 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Now you know why proper grown-up programming languages are so fussy about semicolons! Equinox ◑ 02:53, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
 * (Python-hisses at Equinox) —Rua (mew) 16:25, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

A bot to create a page for every conjugation of every Polish verb
I use Wiktionary alot for Polish. We have a page for the infinitive form of many Polish verbs (example), but not an individual page for each conjugated form. We do have such pages for conjugated forms of verbs in other languages (such as french), so it seems that site policy is to have an individual page for each form, but nobody's done it for Polish yet. I'd like to volunteer to create a bot to do this automatically. Should I do this? If I did, is there some sort of approval process the bot would have to go through before I run it? I wouldn't want a bug in the code to create overnight ten thousand bad pages that then need to be deleted. Gaiacarra (talk) 14:53, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Such a bot was in fact run in the past for Polish, although it's been many years and it is certainly needed once again. You will have to undergo a vote for your bot to be approved first. Read WT:BOT and ask me if you have any trouble. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 15:16, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

False categorization
The entry for the Italian word tartagliare links it to the Category:English onomatopoeias. How did that get there, and how can we get rid of it? -- Picapica (talk) 16:05, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It's because the template is missing a language, and it's defaulting to English for some reason. That should be changed. —Rua (mew) 16:15, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation, Rua! I'm not up to modifying the template myself, I'm afraid -- but perhaps someone else reading this, and more savvy than I, will know how to fix the problem. -- Picapica (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Three Chinese proverbs using offensive descriptive language
I wasn't sure where to post this but the Chinese proverbs 紅番排隊去廁所, 黑人僧, and 非洲和尚 should all be noted as offensive as they deride both Native Americans and Black people. Also, the use of "Red Indians" in 紅番排隊去廁所 should be noted as derogatory. Lastly, all uses of the word "humorous" (used in all three pages) should be noted as racist humor. Kiarazuri (talk) 02:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * [retracted] —suzukaze (t・c) 02:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You don't get to decide what other people do and don't find offensive. DTLHS (talk) 02:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * In countries like China and Russia they still think it's OK to be racists and bigots and to have a full set of other phobias, unfortunately. In China a detergent ad will promise to make a Black man whiter and in Russia they promise 'We'll Wash Away All The Black!' with an Obama picture on the car wash. Just a fact. And if you criticise them for this behaviour, they will call YOU a racist. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:37, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not how offensive things work Suzukaze. As a Black AND Native American woman THOSE PHRASES ARE OFFENSIVE TO ME AND THEY SHOULD BE LABELED AS SUCH. Kiarazuri (talk) 03:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * My initial assessment is that all the three phrases, and  have racist connotations and should be labelled as such, even if they are not necessarily considered racist by Chinese speakers. User:Kiarazuri has added the labels but User:Suzukaze-c has removed them. Sorry, Suzukaze, I'm not with you on this one. The labels should be restored. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:13, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you Anatoli T.! Kiarazuri (talk) 04:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I concur that this is an appropriate use of the offensive label. I think that no further action is necessary. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there should be some note on the entries about what was just said; that native speakers wouldn't find this offensive, while people of other cultures (thus linguistic backgrounds) would find the literally translated meaning of these idioms offensive. PseudoSkull (talk) 07:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * And I say this because Wiktionary readers may be confused by this in the future, as User:Kiarazuri was. PseudoSkull (talk) 07:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * These phrases are not supposed to offend at all though, they are more of a play on words. Would "potentially offensive" be better? Wyang (talk) 07:52, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:18, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate that you've kept the offensive label but I think "potentially" should be taken off and I think everyone needs a lesson on how offensive language works. Just because something isn't SUPPOSED to offend Wyang doesn't mean it doesn't. These phrases say that Native American people talking is indistinct chatter and that black people are annoying, that is offensive to my people even if the Chinese people saying it don't see it as such. It's still racist humor and it doesn't matter where in the world it's being used. The group being referred to are the ones that get to decide whether they're offended or not, not the group doing the referring. Also, there are Black and Native American Chinese people and this affects them, it perpetuates negative stereotypes that will affect how they're treated. I wasn't confused PseudoSkull I know exactly how these things work, this is literally part of my major and what I'm currently studying. Kiarazuri (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * In my point of view, calling them "potentially offensive" is mildly acceptable, but "offensive" crosses a line that we are not qualified to cross yet. It can be seen as racist humor, but these words are used as part of wordplay, and are not inherently linked to any form of racism; potentially racially-charged words (from a Western perspective) just happened to fit the bill: 羽毛輪廁 "feathers + take turns + washroom" turned out to be a homophone of 語無倫次 "speaking incoherently" and was reworded as 紅番排隊去廁所 "red barbarians line up to use the washroom" for fun. Is "紅番" bad wording? Probably. Is it a bad idea to link "黑人僧" to the concept of "annoying"? Probably. But as Wiktionary is a descriptive dictionary, I think that they should not be marked as "offensive" until people (society as a whole) actually find them offensive.
 * Some people don't like being called "obese" or "overweight". I get that. I understand why. But we don't say that "overweight" is an offensive word on this dictionary yet, nor is "obese" (and actually, I really wonder if we should to mark "obese" as "potentially offensive"). Meanwhile, "retarded" is marked as offensive, and rightfully so. —suzukaze (t・c) 17:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


 * It is also possible for people to claim they are offended when they really aren't, in order to gain some benefit or force the other to back down. So "X gets to decide" is very abusable. Equinox ◑ 17:35, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * What's the potential for abuse here? If someone told us to remove or censor the entries, we'd laugh at them. Slapping a context label on that seems pretty reasonable is all we're going to do. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:21, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The potential for abuse is a large Twitter mob telling us to make stuff "offensive" or they will bite our mothers. I dunno. I asked about 6 months ago "how do we decide what's offensive?" specifically because I knew that people with one year of sociology would eventually come here telling us how to do things, and delete the nigger entry. Equinox ◑ 02:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * P.S. There's a little irony that folks who are supposedly learning how to deal with all possible cultures, and not fix on their own home culture, are now very likely to kick up a huge fuss about this kind of thing. means reading texts to see if anything might be wrong with them, not just hating yourself for being a white dude. Physician, heal thyself; critical-literate, analyse your own constructs. Maybe Derrida will help. Equinox ◑ 03:04, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It is ironic indeed, . I feel offended by the argument, that if someone feels offended by something it cannot be said anymore, so the argument invalidates itself, but, very ironically, now It seems I shouldn't have made the same argument. It's a non-issue, without any objective argument. In this specific case the arguments are implicit (ie. expected to be obvious?) and one sided on both sides! There's a double standard when noone raises an eyebrow at " In countries like China and Russia they still think ..." . Everyone else in this thread made sweeping generalisations to different degrees, too -- there I joined in. The question is really just, does any one else see the irony?

opposite of "making a rod for your own back"
If you do something that is a bad idea that will hurt you, you're making a rod for your own back. What's the opposite? Is there a term for doing something (maybe accidentally, or maybe not) that will help you out? Equinox ◑ 02:49, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I looked in various thesauruses and idiom-defining-sites but they only had synonyms of this phrase, not antonyms or idioms with th meaning you want. :( - -sche (discuss) 18:24, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

labelled images - a good idea or not?
I have added a labelled image at lapping, is this a welcome move/good idea or not? I cannot remember if I have seen them here before or not. Feel free to delete it. If it is a good idea, I can make a more advanced image with more bow making vocabulary. Thank you. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it's a good idea. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 03:51, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed: this is valuable. I would recommend making these templates so that there is consistency amongst the definitions. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I think I will add a labelled photo of a bow rather than a drawing which should be more useful. I will temporarily remove this one as the words still need work. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 13:33, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Wiktionary server
Well... has anyone already made a Wiktionary Discord server? If not, I feel like it'd be kind of cool if we had one. I can make it. Though it's designed for gaming communities, a ton of communities have Discord servers, such as anime and other wiki communities. PseudoSkull (talk) 15:25, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * might be interested in this, for instance. PseudoSkull (talk) 16:53, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It could replace the IRC that is usually inactive (for me at least). —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 20:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

American Low German
Sometimes Low German (nds) is split into German Low German (nds-de) and Dutch Low Saxon (nds-nl) at Wiktionary. To which does American Low German belong? Is it German Low German (more precicely East Frisian, Bremisch or Meklenburgisch etc.) even though it's from America? Does it depend on author or text? Is there a (not yet supported) Wiktionary sub-language American Low German (maybe nds-am)? A few words from American Low German (from a book printed in America and from a short text from America but presented in Germany): -91.6.198.175 15:38, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I see. Then the above is American German Low German (nds-de, maybe with if something is odd). Thanks. -91.6.198.175 16:16, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The that is spoken in North and South America (and elsewhere) has its own ISO (and Wiktionary) code,  . For any non-Plautdietsch, non-Mennonite-derived Low German it should be possible to tell if it is German Low German or Dutch Low Saxon (the forms and bibliographic details you give suggest it is German Low German). There have been occasional discussions about merging nds-de and nds-nl; there have even been discussions of merging pdt, which seems (even) more controversial. - -sche (discuss) 15:55, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The question does not relate to Plautdietsch.
 * And there is also a code for (e.g.) Hutterisch: . —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:15, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Correct Low German?
The Brothers Grimm collected German fairy tales and some are written down in dialectal Low German. Grimm's spellings and spellings in younger text are different, and differ in ways that would imply different pronunciations. Example: Grimm have Perd (Pferd, horse) said to be from Münster and Paderborn while later Münsterian and Paderbornian authors have Piärd, Grimm have Hochtitsluhe (Hochzeitsleute, wedding people) said to be from Paderborn while Paderbornians have hauch (inflected haug-), Tyt ( = /ei/ but not /ai/) and Luie which would rather give *Hauchtytsluie (compare Hauchduitsch beginning with hauch- and Wyhnachtstyt with an s inside). It should be more likely that the Grimm failed to write down Westphalian correctly instead of that there were some greater sound shifts around 1850. Are these (old and probably improper) spellings permitted for Wiktionary? They are usages, they are durably archived, and improver writing isn't only a foreign deficiency. -91.6.198.175 21:53, 29 January 2018 (UTC)