Wiktionary:Votes/2021-03/Merging Prakrit lects into one

Merging Prakrit lects into one
Voting on: Merging the following Middle Indo-Aryan lects as “Prakrit” (, currently etymology-only):


 * Ardhamagadhi Prakrit
 * Elu Prakrit
 * Khasa Prakrit
 * Magadhi Prakrit
 * Maharastri Prakrit
 * Paisaci Prakrit
 * Sauraseni Prakrit

Background: These Middle Indo-Aryan lects were originally considered to differ to such an extent that they were treated as independent languages at Wiktionary. However, as the coverage of these Middle Indo-Aryan lects has grown, it has become apparent that they do not differ from one another as originally thought. Furthermore, much of the academic literature on Middle Indo-Aryan collectively refer to these lects as “Prakrit” without specifying any particular lect, and the attestation of each lect varies considerably. Treating each of these Middle Indo-Aryan lects as independent languages has led to confusion, which has hindered the progress of Wiktionary's coverage of Middle Indo-Aryan. This merger will make it easier for editors to manage these Middle Indo-Aryan lects.

Further details:
 * The seven language codes listed above will be changed to etymology-only languages. These seven etymology-only codes will be used for the etymologies of their descendant entries (as they are used currently).


 * If a “Prakrit” term can be considered to belong to one or more of the seven Middle Indo-Aryan lects listed above, labels such as pra would be used to automatically categorise the term.


 * For example:
 * 1. is specifically attested as, so, after the merger, there would be pra beside its definition, which would link to  and categorise the term into a category such as  . The language-header will be “Prakrit”.


 * 2. is attested as  and, so, after the merger, there would be pra beside its definition, which would categorise the term into categories such as   and  . The language-header will be “Prakrit”.


 * There are currently no reconstructed entries in the seven Middle Indo-Aryan lects that are to be merged.


 * Although the following languages are included in the family Category:Prakrit languages, they will not be merged into “Prakrit” :


 * Ashokan Prakrit
 * Gandhari
 * Kamarupi Prakrit
 * Pali


 * Gandhari and Pali have separate identities. Ashokan Prakrit represents an earlier stage of Middle Indo-Aryan, and Kamarupi Prakrit represents a later stage of Middle Indo-Aryan.

Schedule:
 * Vote starts: 00:00, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Vote ends: 23:59, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Vote created: 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 10:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Discussions:
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2008: Beer_parlour/2008/February
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] June 2009: User_talk:Bogorm/archive4
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2009: Talk:emerald
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2009: User_talk:Qehath/Archive_2009
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] June 2011: Talk:Prakrit
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2012: Etymology_scriptorium/2012/November
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2013: Talk:cheetah
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2013: Module_talk:languages/Archive_1
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] June 2014: Etymology_scriptorium/2014/June
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2014: Etymology_scriptorium/2014/October
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2015: Grease_pit/2015/November
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2016: Beer_parlour/2016/February
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2016: Beer_parlour/2016/April
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2016: Beer_parlour/2016/May
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2016: Talk:𑀳𑀢𑁆𑀣
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2016: Grease_pit/2016/May
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2016: Beer_parlour/2016/July
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2016: Talk:ལོ་ཙཱ་བ
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2017: Category_talk:Braj_language
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: Grease_pit/2017/May
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: User_talk:JohnC5/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: Beer_parlour/2017/May
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: User_talk:AryamanA/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: Category_talk:Konkani_inherited_terms
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: Reconstruction_talk:Proto-Indo-European/bʰegʷ-#Hindi
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: User_talk:AryamanA/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: Reconstruction_talk:Proto-Dravidian/palṇas
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2017: Talk:𑀯𑀅𑀁
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] June 2017: Reconstruction_talk:Proto-Indo-Iranian/úštras#Sindhi
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] June 2017: Reconstruction_talk:Proto-Indo-Iranian/úštras#Nasal_consonants
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2017: Talk:ઓછું
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2017: Talk:दू
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2017: User_talk:AryamanA/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2017: Beer_parlour/2017/July
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2017: Category_talk:Hindi_Tadbhava
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2017: Beer_parlour/2017/August
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2017: User_talk:Bhagadatta/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2017: Talk:सग्ळे
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2017: Talk:लोग
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2017: User_talk:Kutchkutch#माकड_(mākaḍ)
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2017: User_talk:AryamanA/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2017: User_talk:AryamanA/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2017: Talk:𐨧𐨪𐨡
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2017: Talk:कैसा
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2017: Beer_parlour/2017/October
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2017: Talk:आता
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2017: Talk:चौकी
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2017: Talk:पूछना
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2017: Talk:哪吒
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2017: Talk:ओकणे
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2017: User_talk:Palaestrator_verborum/2017
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2017: Talk:हांव
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2017: Talk:𑀲𑀺𑀓𑁆𑀔𑀇
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2017: User_talk:DerekWinters#Ashokan_Prakrit
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2017: Talk:जुआ
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] December 2017: User_talk:Octahedron80/archive_1
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2018: User_talk:Bhagadatta/2018
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2018: Talk:सस्ता
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2018: Talk:बीघा
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2018: Talk:मत
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2018: User_talk:AryamanA/2018
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2018: Reconstruction_talk:Ashokan_Prakrit/𑀓𑀼𑀢𑁆𑀢
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2018: Beer_parlour/2018/January
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Wiktionary_talk:About_Dardic
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:में
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Reconstruction_talk:Proto-Indo-European/pró
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:𐨯𐨿𐨤𐨒𐨿𐨪
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:𑀥𑀁𑀫𑀮𑀺𑀧𑀺
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:𑀇𑀬𑀁
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:𑀲𑁆𑀯𑀕
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Category_talk:Ashokan_Prakrit_language
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Beer_parlour/2018/February
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Category_talk:Ashokan_Prakrit_language
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:ઓથ
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: User_talk:Victar/Reflexes/Proto-Dardic
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:ઝરવું
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: User_talk:AryamanA/2018
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: User_talk:Msasag#श्वास_(śvāsa)
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2018: Talk:ছোৱালী
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2018: User_talk:Rhyminreason#कान्हा_(kānhā)
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2018: Talk:नया
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2018: Talk:নাৰিকল
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2018: Module_talk:mai-headword
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2018: User_talk:GeneralPericles#Dhivehi
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2018: Talk:डुकर
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2018: Reconstruction_talk:Proto-Indo-Iranian/bálam#Possible_Derivatives_in_Sinhalese_and_Tamil
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2018: Talk:इथे
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2018: Talk:वच्चे
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2018: Talk:𑀧𑀸𑀅
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] June 2018: User_talk:AryamanA/2018
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2018: Talk:𐨯𐨿𐨤𐨭𐨂𐨪
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2018: Talk:मशक
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2018: User_talk:Victar#psu_code
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2018: Talk:अत्थरूं
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2019: Talk:ಗುಟುಕು
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2019: Etymology_scriptorium/2019/April
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2019: Module_talk:family_tree#Prakrit_languages
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2019: Talk:gadjo
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2019: User_talk:AryamanA/2019
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2019: Talk:चूची
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2019: Beer_parlour/2019/November
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] December 2019: Talk:गोस्वामिन्
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] December 2019: Talk:क्रोश
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2020: Category_talk:Assamese language
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2020: Category_talk:Early_Assamese_language
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2020: Tea_room/2020/March
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2020: Etymology_scriptorium/2020/May
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] May 2020: User_talk:Metaknowledge/2020
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] July 2020: Talk:अशें
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2020: Appendix_talk:Marathi_Swadesh_list
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2020: User_talk:AryamanA#Pravachan_in_Prakrit!
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2020: Talk:𑀡𑀻𑀬#Continuing_the_discussion
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2020: Etymology_scriptorium/2020/August
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2020: Talk:बछड़ा
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] August 2020: Talk:रोकड़
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2020: Talk:बद्ध
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2020: Template_talk:inc-extension
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2020: Module_talk:inc-ash/dial
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2020: Beer_parlour/2020/September
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] September 2020: Talk:তুমি
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2020: Talk:शेप
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] October 2020: Reconstruction_talk:Ashokan_Prakrit/𑀕𑀼𑀧𑁆𑀨𑀸#Language
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2020: Talk:हिचकी
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2020: Talk:𑀦𑀸𑀫#Moving_the_page
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] November 2020: Talk:घोट
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] December 2020: Category_talk:Hindi_terms_by_Sanskrit_root
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2021: User_talk:Bhagadatta#Potentially_useful_site
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2021: Talk:𑀨𑀼𑀮𑁆𑀮
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2021: User:SodhakSH/पुराचर्चापृष्ठम्
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2021: Category_talk:Prakrit_languages
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2021: User:SodhakSH/पुराचर्चापृष्ठम्
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2021: Reconstruction_talk:Sanskrit/ध्वजदण्ड#Creation
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] January 2021: Talk:قنبيل
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2021: Talk:𑘖𑘲𑘕𑘜𑘹
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2021: Talk:खादन
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2021: Talk:बरछा
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2021: User_talk:Bhagadatta#Sanskrit_विनति_(vinati,_“request”)_&_Hindi_विनती_(vintī,_“request”)
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2021: Talk:आढ्य
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] February 2021: User_talk:Djkcel#ঝুট
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2021: Template_talk:pmh-decl-adj
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2021: Talk:𑀯𑀼𑀠
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2021: User_talk:Benwing2#Help_with_merging_Prakrits
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2021: Wiktionary_talk:Votes/2021-03/Merging_Prakrit_lects_into_one
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] March 2021: Category_talk:Gandhari_language
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2021: User_talk:Antiquistik#Old_Persian
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2021: Talk:बरछा
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2021: Talk:𑀆𑀅𑀅
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] April 2021: User_talk:SodhakSH#ऐ_and_औ_in_Sauraseni_reconstructions

Support

 * 1)  Kutchkutch (talk) 00:07, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 2)  This would greatly help in the coverage of MIA on Wiktionary. I prompt all Indo-Aryan editors to support. 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 01:01, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 3)  Whatever I have to say on the subject matter can be found in the relevant links posted above. I do agree with Metaknowledge that this did not have to be a vote but the others insisted that a vote be created for this purpose so here we are. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)  10:11, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 4)  I have made my arguments very clear in the big discussion and the many many discussions that have taken place before. And yeah, this is pointless bureaucracy. BTW, sorry for my inactivity--swamped at university. I'll be happy to write the script for the merger once it is approved. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 18:45, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Great to know, and thanks for supporting! 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 02:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 1)  I remember researching about these languages, and I always thought that these all are basically different dialects of a language called Prakrit. Of course they should be one language. ॥ ☼ সূর্যমান ☽ ॥ 21:56, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 2)  I am pleased to see such a thorough discussion and strong support from the editors. I think this is definitely better than the current situation since it will allow much greater flexibility. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 06:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 3)  unified Prākṛta, as one of the proposers. @SodhakSH & @Kutchkutch, thanks for your hard work of making and building this vote. By the way, Victar is being too overbearing. -⸘-  inqilābī  ‹inqilāb·zinda·bād› 21:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * All credit to @Kutchkutch for the wording and discussions. I just made a default-like vote with one discussion and little description. 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 02:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 1)  Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 10:05, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 2)  --DannyS712 (talk) 04:31, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 3)  In general, the community of editors working on a given language or set of languages should be the ones who decide what happens to the language(s). Benwing2 (talk) 04:52, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  I'm not going to straight out oppose the vote, but I have a few concerns. Eḷu has several archaisms and is more similar to Pali than to the other Prakrits. It seems strange to include it. "Prakrit" is such a general term for MIA languages. Minus Eḷu and Khasa, these are . Shouldn't we instead merge these to a Dramatic Prakrits language code? --  06:10, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * We are merging only the Prakrit descendants (read above, why not in "Further details") of Ashokan Prakrit (analyses of Helu Prakrit suggest that it is descended from speakers of Ashokan Prakrit that migrated from the mainland). Also, we're not excluding Khasa (and Paiśācī) from Prakrit. CAT:Khasa Prakrit lemmas and CAT:Helu lemmas are empty as of now. 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 08:05, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * What analysis suggests Eḷu is descended from Ashokan? Eḷu is also an Apabhraṁśa, and we're not merging the Apabhraṁśas into this code, right? If you're suggesting deleting Khasa, I'm fine with that, but if the language is called "Dramatic Prakrits", it shouldn't be an etym-only alias for it. Can you address my "Prakrits" header concern and my "Dramatic Prakrits" suggestion? -- 08:36, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Definitely no one calls 'Pali' a 'Prakrit'. On DSAL, there is a separate Pali dictionary (R:pi:PTS) from the Prakrit one (R:pra:Sheth). Even Turner (R:inc:Turner) stated 'Prakrit' as text and 'Pali' as text and doesn't include Pali in Prakrit. Elu is not an Apabhraṃśa, it's a Prakrit, which is why it is being included. Pinging who can explain "text". 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 09:44, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * See also: by . 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 09:50, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Why are we talking about Pali? If you mean to point out that "Prakrit" only applies to the languages being merged, Ashokan is also called a "Prakrit", yet not being included. Re: Eḷu being an Apabhraṁśa, see R:ODBL and R:hi:Masica:1979. -- 10:02, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The term text can either refer to a Helu Prakrit or Helu Apabhramsha. Helu Apabhramsha is more attested compared to the Helu Prakrit, which is why text is frequently discussed as an Apabhramsha. This proposal only concerns itself with text Prakrit, and the more attested Apabhramsha stage of Elu can be discussed at a later time. text refers to:


 * Müller, Edward (1883). Ancient Inscriptions of Ceylon.
 * Elu is a language that bears a close connection to the Ashokan InscriptionsAssimilation is never expressed by doubling as in Pali.


 * Kuhn, Ernst (1883). “On the Oldest Aryan Element of the Sinhalese Vocabulary” in Indian Antiquary
 * Elu has its nearest relations in the dialects used in King Ashoka's inscriptions, while it differs from Pali in very essential points.


 * WR P. B. F. Wijeratne (1944). Phonology of the Sinhalese Inscriptions up to the end of the 10th Century A.D.
 * User:Kutchkutch/elu-prk
 * Helu has unmistakable affinities with the Eastern inscriptions of Ashoka.


 * Chandralal, Dileep (2010). Sinhala
 * The first Aryan settlements in Sri Lanka are from two streams of immigration, one from Gujarat and the other from BengalUp to the end of the Eighth Century the Sinhalese had free communication with the North Indians


 * The rationale for including Paisaci and Helu and in this merger is that they and their descendants pattern as descendants as Ashokan Prakrit. According to the ancient Prakrit grammarians, Paisaci resembles Sauraseni to such an extent that there are descriptions of Paisaci based on Sauraseni. Although Khasa Prakrit appears to be unattested, Pahari languages also pattern as descendants as Ashokan Prakrit. Since Paisaci and Helu are never considered as a, the merged language cannot be called “Dramatic Prakrit”. Kutchkutch (talk) 10:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the quick reply. Regarding Paiśaci, I'm less concerned about it because a) it's poorly attested, and b) some scholars do consider it a Dramatic Prakrit$428$. Thanks for the clarification on Eḷu. How are we drawing a line between Eḷu Prakrit (usually called Sinhala) and Eḷu Apabhraṁśa (usually just called Eḷu)? Dictionaries simply either call it Eḷu$9$ or Sinhala$alaṃkāˊra$, which is problematic in-and-of-itself. Not all scholars support that Eḷu is descended from Ashokan$440$ (nor Ardhamagadhi for that matter), and Eḷu is usually always listed separately from Prakrits in glossaries, if for no other reason then it being significantly different from most other Prakrits of the period. Regardless, what's the rationale of carte blanche merging all Ashokan derived Prakrits? -- 18:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Considering Paisaci as a Dramatic Prakrit in the following statements from 428 is very imaginative.
 * Paisaci is a Dramatic Prakrit known only from grammariansThe grammatical rules at work in Paisaci could simply be the reverse application the voicing rules applied to produce other Dramatic Prakrits.


 * At 440 it says
 * Pali is the literary language that accompanied the first Indic-speaking migrants to Sri Lanka
 * to explain that the Prakrit that they spoke was not a literary language, so they used Pali as their literary language.


 * Chronologically, Wijeratne (1944) defines Helu Prakrit as text, which is close to Wikipedia's text at . 12 says that Helu Prakrit, dating between the first century BC and the third century AD, belongs to the Middle Eastern Middle Indo-Aryan group derived from Ashokan Prakrit.


 * Wijeratne (1944) has ~250 pages of sound changes, so if someone creates an equivalent of User:AryamanA/Prakrit, we'll be able to categorise data as belonging to Helu Prakrit, Helu Apabhramsa or a later stage.


 * The rationale for carte blanche merging all Ashokan-derived Prakrits is explained in the background section of the proposal. Since the manner in which the academic literature treats these Prakrits is problematic, few editors have been able to contribute towards these Prakrit lects as different languages. If there are specialists in Insular Indo-Aryan, Pahari languages, etc. in the future who can make a case for a different arrangement, then that can be discussed at that time. Kutchkutch (talk) 12:43, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Caley is certainly not the only one that groups Paiśaci with other Dramatic/Literary Prakrit.$R:inc:IAL$$103$$undefined$ I don't really see the issue with this.
 * I understand the chronology of Sinhala > Eḷu but what I'm asking is how do we sort terms in glossaries when Sinhala and Eḷu are being used interchangeably when one is the Prakrit and the other the Apabhraṁśa? There may be words that do exhibit certain changes that we can discern in the future, as you say, but that's not always going to be the case. It seems to me that they should be merged together. It's the same issue you're trying to avoid by merging the Prakritic lects, and to point out again, this issue isn't related to Eḷu because Eḷu is listed separately in glossaries, regardless if it's an Ashokan derived Prakrit. -- 19:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * -- 16:59, 31 March 2021 (UTC)


 * @Victar The first ping didn't work.
 * Regarding text versus text:
 * This is the first time you've used the term text. A distinction can be made between text and text. If the Maharastri and Ardhamagadhi lects are excluded, there are no independent works written entirely in Prakrit. Prakrit lects other than Maharastri and Ardhamagadhi are primarily found in Sanskrit plays/dramas to give some of the characters colloquial, regional, gendered, occupational or rustic appearances that Sanskrit wouldn't be able to provide. Paisaci has not been found in Sanskrit plays/dramas, which is why it is not considered as a text. However, there are legends about how Paisaci is a lost literary language with the being the most famous Paisaci work. So, Paisaci could be considered as a text.


 * Regarding Helu/Elu Prakrit:
 * Earlier you cited text from alaṃkāˊra and text from 9. At https://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/soas/frontmatter/abbreviations.html it says text in R:CDIAL is an abbreviation for text. R:CDIAL also uses text, which presumably stands for text. text can be found in https://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/carter/ as.
 * It seems that the entire nomenclature regarding the history of Sinhala/Sinhalese (and even the modern language itself) is inconsistent. This is why (in the absence of any Insular Indo-Aryan specialists) Wiktionary's coverage of the history of Sinhala/Sinhalese would probably need to adopt its own nomenclature such as Helu/Elu Prakrit → Helu/Elu Apabramsha → Old Sinhala/Sinhalese → modern Sinhala/Sinhalese.
 * The Helu Prakrit terms at User:Kutchkutch/elu-prk do not differ much from their Maharastri Prakrit equivalents other than the lack of aspiration and the preservation of as  rather than  for . These  terms are very indicative that Helu Prakrit is a lect within a spoken dialect continuum of Prakrit from pre-100 BCE to post-100 CE that succeeded the spoken Ashokan Prakrit dialect continuum. Helu Prakrit differs from the other Prakrits in that it didn't become a text or a classical language like Maharastri Prakrit.
 * Merging Helu Prakrit and Helu Apabramsha would be like merging Category:Sauraseni Prakrit language and Category:Sauraseni Apabhramsa language, which no one has proposed since the middle and late stages of Middle Indo-Aryan are currently being treated as separate entities. The phonological progression from Helu Prakrit to Helu Apabramsha as shown in Wijeratne (1944) is certainly not trivial, and there is a possibility that the Category:Dhivehi language could be from Helu Prakrit but not Helu Apabramsha. Kutchkutch (talk) 12:04, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1) . This shouldn't have been a vote. With rare, high-profile exceptions, the fate of language codes should be decided in discussions by the editors who know those languages best, not in votes where people with no relevant background (like me) get an equal say to subject-matter experts. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 06:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree it shouldn't have been a vote. It was discussed between me, Kutchkutch, Bhagadatta, Inqilabi and AryamanA, who are certainly aware of the similarities and differences between these lects. We had also agreed to do this without a vote. See Category_talk:Prakrit_languages . But because JohnC5 and Victar said that for such a major change, a vote was required (see and ), this vote had to be created. 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 08:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , care to explain yourselves here? It's not too late to undo this needless bit of bureaucracy for its own sake. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:14, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing Victar has some concerns about the prospect of reconstructed Prakrit entries in the future and their relationship to CAT:Ashokan Prakrit reconstructed terms. Such concerns are understandable, and it would help if you could elaborate on those concerns. Kutchkutch (talk) 11:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Major changes to language codes should 👏 always 👏 be 👏 voted 👏 upon. This isn't a "needless bit of bureaucracy". -- 19:54, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This isn't on the level of Chinese or Serbo-Croatian, and no quantity of clapping emojis will change that. In the future, I hope you respect the wishes of the editors who actually work on a language rather than imposing votes on something it seems nobody even opposes. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * And what about the other example votes? Do any of them meet your arbitrary level of what you think warrants a vote or not? I opined that this should go to vote, SodhakSH obliged, and I still think it was a good idea for several reasons: 1. it gives more eyeballs to the issue, informing people that may have missed the discussions 2. it distilled the proposal that spanned dozens of discussions to a single page, 3. it gives us an easy link in the future for people who want to know when and where this decision was made. -- 23:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The only one of those votes that was inappropriate was the one you created. This vote is a waste of time, but I will try not to waste any more of my time discussing it. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 23:41, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm actually convinced with your explanation. Why didn't you vote, though? 🔥 शब्दशोधक 🔥 02:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with Victar for all the reasons he stated. This is a major change. The right thing to do is make it a community vote. The fact that only a few people are in a position to say what the right move is doesn't matter. Like he said, we also have a record in one place of when, where, and how this decision was taken. Excellent. &mdash; Dentonius 13:06, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 1)  I have no clue. I trust those editors and hope that others without relevant background knowledge refrain from putting in their say likewise. Otherwise if someone without clue oppose I should perhaps support because the people who should know support. What Metaknowledge says is kind of right, because such votes could only invite people that should not be invited, if without a vote already everyone with recognizable interest has been proposed to. Fay Freak (talk) 11:31, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , as above. Imetsia (talk) 01:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 1)  &mdash; Dentonius 14:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 2)  --Droigheann (talk) 12:58, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 3)  — Fenakhay ( تكلم معاي · ما ساهمت ) 12:20, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 4)  I'm not knowledgeable enough about Prakrits to vote yea or nay. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:30, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Decision

 * Passes 10–1–7. Kutchkutch (talk) 23:58, 20 April 2021 (UTC)