Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2008-04/WMF jargon

WMF jargon
Voting on: Do citations from Wikimedia Foundation projects help a term meet the attestation criterion for inclusion?
 * Yes. Citations exclusively from WMF projects are enough to meet CFI.
 * All but one. There must be at least one citation independent of the WMF projects, though the remaining cites can come from within the projects.
 * One. A single citation can be from a WMF project; the remaining must be independent of the WMF projects.
 * No. Citations in the context of WMF projects do not count.


 * Notes
 * In all options, terms that should not be included in the main namespace may still be included elsewhere (such as Glossary or the Appendix namespace).
 * In all options, terms in the main namespace should still be tagged (as other definitions from specific fields are marked).
 * In all options, "in the context of WMF projects" and "dependent on the WMF projects" are meant to be synonymous and to include citations from non-WMF material which derive from or are about WMF.

When voting, choose your favored choice and your second favorite, specifying which is which; they must be distinct. Votes that choose only one choice, or otherwise not meeting the rule in the preceding sentence, will not count. Tallying the votes will be done by counting each first choice as a point and each second choice as half a point; the option with the most points will be considered the community's choice. In case of a tie, there will be deemed to be no result.

Note, the following is not part of the definition of the vote: there seems to be serious confusion about what is being voted on, whether the vote is on the validity of citations from within WMF projects for WMF jargon, or in general. I have been adding citations for ordinary words extracted from WP; which seems to be completely outside the vote in progress, which is clearly titled "WMF jargon". See User talk:Robert Ullmann and Citations:ethernet (which we do not yet have: ethernet). If this vote is not about WMF jargon as it clearly states, that must be made clear and the vote started again. Robert Ullmann 23:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No, I think the scope has been clear from the start: "Do citations from Wikimedia Foundation projects help a term meet the attestation criterion for inclusion?" The phrase "WMF jargon" doesn't occur anywhere in the proposed text, only in the title, since that was the discussion that led to this solution. It would make no sense whatsoever to me to have different standards of attestation for this one category of words ("WMF jargon") as opposed to the rest of the dictionary. The question is whether we, as a WMF project, should use WMF projects for attestation, and to what degree—and that answers the "WMF jargon" issue, since that was what was in dispute. Dmcdevit·t 01:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree: the title of the vote announces, clearly and unequivocally that it is about "WMF jargon". Application to something else is entirely out-of-scope. Yes, it may have been badly named, but there it is. If it is to be about acceptability of WMF quotes for other terms, it must be renamed, properly defined, and restarted. (Do keep in mind that the citations I have been adding have nothing to do with this either way, since no-one is contending that they meet strict CFI; but they did cause the issure to be raised: there is more misunderstanding of the definition of this vote than there is dispute of (either) issue being raised.) Robert Ullmann 01:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Robert. The first sentence of the vote is "Voting on: Do citations from Wikimedia Foundation projects help a term meet the attestation criterion for inclusion?", which on the face of it would apply to "all words in every language" (given our stated goal), however given the immediately preceding title "WMF jargon" I have been reading the word "term" to mean "WMF jargon term". Given that this is apparently not the intended meaning I am not certain that this vote has legitimacy. While you might think it "would make no sense" that different words be held to different standards, neither you nor I can say for certain that this is a view shared by all Wiktionorians. Indeed given the provisions in the CFI about such things as place names needing attributive use, but this not being required of all proper nouns, I think it is probably safe to say that your view of equality among words does not enjoy unanimous support. Thryduulf 02:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Although I would love for this vote to be invalid, I'm not persuaded by the reasoning here. Consider:
 * Common practice up to this point has been to consider Wikimedia citations invalid ("not durably archived") except for WMF jargon.
 * Changing that, to allow Wikimedia cites for non-jargon terms, would almost certainly require an additional vote.
 * The second note specifically states that affected terms would still be tagged.
 * So regardless of whether this vote is explicitly restricted to WMF jargon or not, it will only actually affect the standards for WMF jargon terms (specifically, excluding them from mainspace, for no reason other than to soothe our inflated sense of self-importance). -- Visviva 03:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If we want the vote to be about WMF jargon only, we have to specify what that means. The intent of the wording of this vote was that words that cannot be attested independently of WMF are, by definition, WMF jargon, and so should be tagged wjargon. This obviously and unfortunately was unclear, though. Perhaps votes placed should be canceled and the vote re-started, as Robert demands above?&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 18:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand the meaning of a "No" vote. I don't think that Wikimedia projects should count in general, but what would be tagged as wjargon if we couldn't cite WMF talk pages (and is there even a need for wjargon citations)? If we had to cite other sources then it wouldn't be wjargon anymore. Would it? Saying that Wikipedia couldn't be cited in general would just about kill wjargon, which I see as a necessary special case which explains the language we use in exactly the place where one would expect to find it. If the scope were broader, my vote would be something like "No, except for wjargon" except that if you need to prove wjargon with citations then the term's simply not worth keeping in the first place. DAVilla 20:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Per my comment immediately above, the way I understand this vote (which I authored) is that "No" implies that wjargon words are excluded.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 16:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Vote ends: 7 June 2008 23:59 UTC
 * Vote started: 8 May 2008 23:59 UTC


 * Vote created: &mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 17:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Discussion:
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] Template talk:Wiktionary and WMF jargon
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] WT:RFV#BJAODN (link to old version of page)
 * [[Image:Wikt rei-artur3.svg|20px]] the talk page of this vote

Votes

 * One All but one Conrad.Irwin 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * One No&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 16:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, All but one. Wikimedia projects are legitimate literary works, but they are written by us. The self-referential nature of citing another WMF is both unprofessional (it's like the OED citing The Oxford Dictionary of the Renaissance) and unconvincing as a source. As they are wikis, anything quoted from a WMF project could easily be edited to say something the next day, or deleted, so it's hard to say whether it even counts as durably archived (and if a diff counts, then "PENISPENIsPENIS1!!" could be on its way to attestation as well. ;-) ). Dmcdevit·t 16:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * From above: "When voting, choose your favored choice and your second favorite, specifying which is which; they must be distinct. Votes that choose only one choice, or otherwise not meeting the rule in the preceding sentence, will not count."&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 17:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If anyone is interested in why this rule should be applied, this is a Borda Count system, see Borda Count Robert Ullmann 17:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand, but I haven't made any other decision yet. Dmcdevit·t 17:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes No (this vote does make sense, think about it ;-) Robert Ullmann 17:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it could make sense as a tactical vote, but I'm guessing you mean it as a vote for the conceptually simpler options? —Ruakh TALK 20:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It means I think the citations should count (or not count), but not one of this and two of the other or whatever; either they are valid or they aren't. (Although one might argue for "One" by treating additional cites as non-independent.) Robert Ullmann 11:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That was my thought in voting "One", fwiw.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 18:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No One Is this vote actually live now? Can I vote?  -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No One Hrm ... The problem of course IS that we wrote them. No matter what, that's always going to be a problem. --Neskaya talk 17:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * One All but one. And with "WMF project" I like to stress I would include the software, MediaWiki. Independently on whether the use is found in a wiki under the WMF umbrella or not. Whether they "derive from or are about WMF." \Mike 18:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC) Note: I think multiple WMF-based cites would call the independency criterion into question; to allow multiple would IMO be akin to allowing "Saruman" because it can be cited from each of books in the LOTR trilogy... ;) \Mike 04:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * One All but one, with all cites to Wikis using permalinks to specific revisions. Thryduulf 19:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No Yes EncycloPetey 19:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No Yes (I thought about it, Ullmann :-) ) ArielGlenn 20:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No one. —Ruakh TALK 20:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes No. Tagged, useful, end of story.  Professionalism is a bogus reason for doing anything on-wiki.  As a greater fictional man than I once said "in the real world, they pay professionals.  That's why they call them pros."  Since we're not getting paid here, we're free to do what's right instead of what looks good.  In any case, splitting the difference makes no sense.  -- Visviva 00:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No One. Widsith 11:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No One. We don't cite ourselves—this should be applied strictly to self-referential metaproducts. —Michael Z. 2008-05-09 14:51 z 
 * Yes One. I think it only amounts to self-reference if you cite yourself. I would be as comfortable citing other good wiki writers such as SemperBlotto or A-cai as I would almost any nonwiki writer. —Stephen 19:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * One One :D (I am a cheater by nature =/ ) - 20:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I move that this user be deleted for knowingly and willingly failing to follow clearly posted policies. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, let's it. Conrad.Irwin 21:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC) (Though, seriously, could you please fix your vote - there's supposed to be  some kind of science behind the system)
 * I'll settle for just deleting User:TheDaveRoss/sig instead. Dmcdevit·t 22:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Dmc is just jealous, he needs more sleep. Also how dare you besmirch this most sacred of holy places (WT:VOTE) with offtopic discussion!  Forshame! -  23:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're such a rabid deletionist that you're taking the middle road, I see. I think was more accurate. Dmcdevit·t 00:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No one --Ivan Štambuk 22:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No All but one. Generally speaking, unless circumstances leave us no choice, our work should have a verified source from another site - verification from other Wikimedia projects is kind of pointless and unprofessional given that we're referencing things that we ourselves typed. Sourcing ourselves instead of an actual third party goes against Wikimedia policies, and spirit. Connell66 22:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

&rarr; Just so people know, as of this comment, "no" has 11.5 votes, "one" has 7.5 votes, "yes" has 4 votes, and "all but one" has 2.5 votes. (At least, I think so. Y'all are quite welcome to check my reckoning. Note that I ignored The Rabid Deletionist's vote, per the instructions above; but I think it's fair to assume that he'll eventually change his second vote and leave his first vote be, such that "one" will have 8.5 votes. Also, note that, per above discussion, it's debatable whether this vote covers all words, or only WMF jargon.) —Ruakh TALK 20:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As I see it:
 * Yes, if independence from the other citations can be established, particularly if the citation can be attributed to a single reputable author whose full name is known. On the other hand, several citations from WMF would require isolated authors, for instance from different projects whose topics differ substantially. This isn't much different from the way we treat Usenet citations. Also, as with Usenet citations, if only these are available then it suggests that the term is internet slang. I remember a slang term that was even more specific than that, only used on Usenet itself, that was deleted, so there's a measure of subjectivity in judging the value of citations.
 * Yes, if the author cannot be established because it is a collaborative article but one that has been permalinked as reviewed, in which case it is treated as an edited work.
 * Otherwise, no. Pragmatically, this is a no vote most often. Unless no other sources are available, such citations would not be very useful, again much like Usenet. In fact it's even a less significant source than Usenet because encyclopedias by their nature are not the kinds of sources whose content ever strays far from the norm. But I wouldn't want to vote against outright because there may be special cases where such a quotation may be useful, for instance technical jargon that rarely gets past a spell checker but easily leaks its way into a wiki article. So I would say one would be entirely appropriate under the special conditions above (known author or peer edited), and possibly more depending on the circumstances. DAVilla 21:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No; one . I am in favor of better access by new users to the jargon that we use here at Wiktionary by a one-click connection to the Glossary in the navigation pane. We may need to make sure that all of the terms and abbreviations used in Wiktionary space are actually in the glossary. I think we should be eating our own dog food, not exempting ourselves from inconvenient rules. DCDuring TALK 00:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that you have to give two votes here: a top choice, which gets one point, and a second choice, which gets half a point. Otherwise, your entire vote is discounted. —Ruakh TALK 01:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC) Thanks. :-) —Ruakh TALK 01:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Decision

 * No: 12.5
 * One: 8.0
 * All but one: 2.5
 * Yes: 4
 * Citations in the context of Wikimedia projects do not count for the purposes of CFI. Conrad.Irwin 14:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Update: This vote has now been superseded by Votes/pl-2010-06/WMF jargon accepted when it meets CFI. There is no longer a specific restriction on WMF citations (though normal rules of independence and durable archival still apply). —Ruakh TALK 14:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)